Spying when?

[TheZhentarim]

I want some clarifications.

Which areas is it considered to hide and spy on PCs as metagaming?
I am thinking that sneaking around inside any buildings with NPCs without a DM present is metagaming, so in this case, if I go sneak and hide in a place like, say Candlekeep, since the place has guards, it is metagaming to sneak without a DM present, right?

So, any presence of NPC guards, would be considered a place where a DM needs to be around for a PC to sneak in?

[Planehopper]

I'd say if there are NPCs or its in a guild hall (as many have approved off screen NPC assets) a DM is necessary for official spying.

[Blackman D]

So, any presence of NPC guards, would be considered a place where a DM needs to be around for a PC to sneak in?

pretty much, guard NPCs and guild halls are safe zones so to say without a DM because guild halls have infiltration rules and you dont know how many guards there actually are and their detection skills or if they are fully alert or distracted etc.

[Steve]

But then this would also translate into one not being able to sneak in the Farmlands map, either.

So maybe it really needs to be more a statement of “NPC guards within line-of-sight of the sneak?”

Or, only inside areas with NPC guards. Just having NPC guard presence on a Map stretches the godmodding rule a bit far, imho.

[RagingPeace]

I honestly only thought guildhalls required DM attention and maybe some specific places like places with a lot of military presence. It would be a bit weird if you can't spy on people in Farmlands or inside Baldur's gate, for example.

Stealth
On hiding in cities: Hiding in plain sight in the open space of cities is allowed provided you have a minimum of hide and move silently. This can be used to sneak into guild halls, but being caught makes you subject to infiltration rules.
Note: If a DM is present, he/she may decide that one of the NPCs present have higher (or sometimes even lower) spot or listen than normal.
On invisibility: Being invisible does not automatically make you quiet. If you do not have the above requisite move silently skill, NPCs will detect you.

[Truthiness]

I honestly only thought guildhalls required DM attention and maybe some specific places like places with a lot of military presence. It would be a bit weird if you can't spy on people in Farmlands or inside Baldur's gate, for example.

Stealth
On hiding in cities: Hiding in plain sight in the open space of cities is allowed provided you have a minimum of hide and move silently. This can be used to sneak into guild halls, but being caught makes you subject to infiltration rules.
Note: If a DM is present, he/she may decide that one of the NPCs present have higher (or sometimes even lower) spot or listen than normal.
On invisibility: Being invisible does not automatically make you quiet. If you do not have the above requisite move silently skill, NPCs will detect you.

This was always my view of it as well.

Currently the whole spying in stealth rp is taking a bit of a downturn as most pcs just head off to one of many guild halls to discuss anything secretive (or they just have a spotter). When/if player housing is added, it's likely going to take an even further hit.

[artemitavik]

I know recently the BSF got some stuff stolen by sneaks, and no DM was involved with them getting past the guards. However, those players also contacted the leaders of the BSF and said "hey, there is this thing between you and another guild that happened and we saw it, can we do <X> and all?" It was quite polite, they were open to being told no, and folk in 3 guilds had fun with it.

However, clearly, that isn't the case most of the time with spying, as you don't want the person to OOCly know you're there either. However, places that are large and open, like the Farmlands, while likely obnoxious, I don't see why sneaks can't just...well.. sneak around. Clearly in close proximity to the guards and stuff (say, at the FAI or near the gate of BG, or where guards are actively patrolling) that might be an issue, but out in the middle of the field? *shrug*

While yeah, sure, I can agree that really, not every guard in existence is going to have 100+ spot to make sure you are seen, it's safer just to assume that the guards have a chance of seeing you and avoid them as to not metagame/godmode the guards without a DM present. At least IMO.

[Wade]

The rules regulating infiltration and GH pvp are there for a reason, these rules overwrite anti-godmodding rules in case of guildhalls. If they didn't, inflitration rulings would've been obsolette since any sneaking would've been an OOC rule breach. Infiltration rules are unclear and could use a better wording, but it's another subject. If someone who was specifically banned from a GH still sneaks in I guess is a gray area, refering to the #1 server rule.

[Blackman D]

But then this would also translate into one not being able to sneak in the Farmlands map, either.

So maybe it really needs to be more a statement of “NPC guards within line-of-sight of the sneak?”

Or, only inside areas with NPC guards. Just having NPC guard presence on a Map stretches the godmodding rule a bit far, imho.

for large maps yea that would be a problem, tho it should only be within the presence of the guards that it applies, they are not everywhere on the map after all

[Thaelis]

Spying in the Farmlands seems fair game to me... If you can't spy there then just where can you spy?!

My character never spied on anyone there though because of the IC consequences if he were to be spotted i.e. the other player could just call the guards and then I'd be F'ed forever.

[Wolfrayne]

Spying in guildhall private areas is not allowed without a DM present, however there is no rules against simply listening in to other peoples conversations in public areas, if you want to sneak in to private offices etc you will need a DM.

Sneaking in to a guild hall that you have been removed from (even if you have a key) is still considered godmodding as the guards would of been notified of your removal.

[c2k]

I imagine there would never be spying allowed in an actual guild hall because the drama would be great. You would probably have to be invited inside first somehow.

Spying in the Farmlands doesn't seem like an issue. if people want to discuss vital information in a public setting, they get what they deserve.

[Azroth]

I honestly only thought guildhalls required DM attention and maybe some specific places like places with a lot of military presence. It would be a bit weird if you can't spy on people in Farmlands or inside Baldur's gate, for example.

falls under concealment so yes anytime you see a place with NPC's abroad and want to e.g. use HiPS that should be a no-go. However, I will let the mod team and DM Team to rule that one out. That's not my place to speak on their behalf. But it's how I always translated it. And why I don't ever use stealth mechanics to do the job on my own end if I really wanted it anywhere I go as often they have this sort of ruling.

EDIT: I just realized how old your post was and the thread was kinda bumped by another recently. Haha!

[Steve]

The thing is, players could creatively come up with a thousand ways to infiltrate any situation or Area, but unfortunately the mechanics support about 2-3, and the Server only had a handful of DMs in specific time zones that are or are not spending time on individual PC’s activities (not to mention acts that could spark some OOC grief if not actually out in the open OOC, which...kinda ruins the whole fun of gaining secrets without another knowing those secrets are gained).

Anyway...

The mechanics are Hide (or HiPS use), Disguise (somewhat kinda broken?!?), and plain old standing around in ear shot.

As for creativity, for example, let’s take spying in Darkhold. Why couldn’t my secret Harper who came in on a trade caravan with forged work papers to trade goods, goes to use the outhouses, then while no one is looking at him taking a crap, he dodged out to the back passages and base walls, creeping and dodging his way around until he gets close enough to the Dreadlord upon a perch, who in booming, commanding voice is discussing with a sargeant where the next armed deployment will set off to?

The Dreadlord here, on BGTSCC, is going to be a PC.

Now, if my secret sneaky Harper can get back on his caravan and leave the Castle, has what I’ve RP’d and acted out IG and gained IG/IC, godmodding? Is it always that likely and that impossible and that each area of an Area is so terming with guards of such quality and skill that a DM MUST counter all my toons actions?

What I wish to point out here is no blanket statement about NPCs and guards and sneaks will ever cover or do justice to the creative actions we as players could devise. But at the same time a blanket statement is needed because the personal DM/Player game and oversight required is probably impossible to setup and support. Yet, with a blanket like statement, I’m sure many ideas for infiltration die out on the OOC planning board because of Rules and difficulties. But again, it’s about doing what can be done with rules and guidelines to make sure all Players on whatever side of spying and infiltration don’t get their game “ruined” and their feelings hurt.

What the NWN2 engine misses is a NPC setting that is not Hostile but...Aggressive. Meaning, the NPC won’t attack outright but will utilize Search, Spot and Listen skills at short range or visual/hearing range, and when triggered against PC actions, will either then go Hostile or pop up a Dialogue for further PC action/choice (like use Diplomacy check to “talk your way out of it” or Run, or just Fight it out.)

Personally, I think the NPCs in an Area Rule should be tailored down to “any NPC within eye/ear-shot,” because dammit, there are PLENTY of abandoned alleys and dark corners in the Docks of BG where my rogue-assassin should be able to rob and/or murder another, if that is the RP of the day.

[Snarfy]

What the NWN2 engine misses is a NPC setting that is not Hostile but...Aggressive. Meaning, the NPC won’t attack outright but will utilize Search, Spot and Listen skills at short range or visual/hearing range, and when triggered against PC actions, will either then go Hostile or pop up a Dialogue for further PC action/choice (like use Diplomacy check to “talk your way out of it” or Run, or just Fight it out.)

Personally, I think the NPCs in an Area Rule should be tailored down to “any NPC within eye/ear-shot,” ...

Speaking as a player who has more than a few sneaky types, I would love to see NPC guards utilizing search and detection skills to detect law breakers within their personal radius. Just within the last two days several of my characters spotted mask-wearers lurking around the East Gate, and right in front of the Fist patrols(one of which even decided to hop into stealth, put on a mask, disguise their name, and draw their weapons right in front of the magic shop in broad daylight).

If this type of script was applied to city guards and guild halls, it might very well be a game changer, because there seems to be a vast amount of players who are either A: unaware of the rules concerning godmodding NPC's, or B: simply don't care. If people feel like they can get away with shenanigans in front of static NPC's, then nothing is going to stop them from trying the same in guild halls. Detection scripts, if implemented correctly, might go a long way to curbing a lot of sillyness.