Upcoming time of troubles

[zhazz]

Let's please avoid this topic getting locked by having only two people do a back-and-forth argument.

Either provide something constructive and relevant on how to handle the Time of Troubles, or don't post at all.

While I appreciate that some sub-topics of this much broader topic, warrant some further investigation, it is easy to fall into a shouting-match trap, where the topic gets locked.




On the topic of rebalancing around level 20, and how that impacts spell-casters, I find it reasonable that only pure casters will have access to 9th level spells. They can afford a dip of 3 levels, and still get 9th level spells, but aside from that there will be limitations to spell-casting power.

That being said, I worry that a rebalancing for level 20 would just make UMD all the powerful that it already is. Mainly due to a small investment making it possible to cast 9th level spells from scrolls, even with only 23 base ranks in UMD. The only way to remove that issue entirely, is to nerf UMD so heavily that it becomes borderline useless. Nerfing it, however, might not be possible, depending on how hard-coded it is.

[artemitavik]

Well, convenient then that the cap that was mentioned if there was a rebalance is level 20, wherein level 9 spells are accessible

[Snarfy]

Any notion of implementing a level 20 cap would require remaking nearly all of the epic level content and zones. I can probably think of a half dozen popular class/PRC combinations right off the top of my head that, if capped at 20, wouldn't be able to reach necessary feats/abilities by then, and have next to no survivability given the current design. Three class combo builds will become scarce, four class combos will become extinct, and overall build variety will shrink. Don't believe me? Build me a rogue/assassin for a level 20 cap that gets epic precision(DR mobs make this a must have) that isn't a 10/10 split. Unless a complete redesign of epic level content is on the menu(which I would never ask or expect from any sane dev) then this idea is a wash.

Arcane spell failure %'s or wild magic? Eh, I suppose that might be enjoyable for some, but certainly not for most.

At one point I was greatly looking forward to any ToT implementation, but the prospect of a full blown meltdown from players in-game, and on the forums, has kicked that anticipation in the proverbial jewels.

[Planehopper]

There are as many ideas on how to handle this as there are players playing the game.

The one takeaway is that we should all be very flexible in our expectations. No matter how it is handled there will be people that wanted it a different way. Put yourself in the admin/dev/DM shoes and think about how you'd handle the feedback in this thread.

In regard to a lvl 20 cap, and the subsequent rework. Yep, it would be a lot. But do we also expect a redesign of magic and content for a year's worth of 'Time of Troubles', or even just a few months?

Either way, whatever the choice ends up, the task ahead is herculean and we should realize that it likely will not be perfect.

[zhazz]

In regard to a lvl 20 cap, and the subsequent rework. Yep, it would be a lot. But do we also expect a redesign of magic and content for a year's worth of 'Time of Troubles', or even just a few months?

Either way, whatever the choice ends up, the task ahead is herculean and we should realize that it likely will not be perfect.

Without knowing exactly how the code looks, I'd assume it's possible to hook into the spellcasting code, and a few lines for spectacular failure.
At least that's my assumption based on the custom PrCs Archmage and Hierophant, which definitely hook into the spellcasting code for their added DCs and CLs.

[artemitavik]

Believe me, I am aware of the amount of builds that wouldn't be viable with a level 20 cap.

Count my own among them.

The theory, if a level 20 cap was implemented is, it wouldn't be just "for a few months" but rather use those few months of the ToT as a springboard to address the massive balance issues that running an event with a zillion level 30s causes, etc.

Regardless, it is likely a correct assumption that no matter what happens with the ToT, there will be a whole lot of hurt feelings SOMEWHERE.

[Thaelis]

Level cap 20 would be awesome.

I approve

(even if it means a server wipe, which would hurt)

As for a year of paladins not having their powers and magic going wild I'm pretty sure most players would just roll a Fighter or Rogue and play them for a year...

[Azroth]

Honestly? I think many in the past wanted level 20 caps across many places. Or other designs to stop others from entering epic. And it does alright so long as you stick with the design in the mind.

The main issues overall at this point and time is, to get to ToT I strongly believe the server will need a reboot to enter the overhaul to fit with the times. That I am fine with personally. But that can take a very long time depending on who is on the team designing the server. And honestly? It's not uncommon to see server reboots in the first game even depending on the context.

One of the things I would like to see, and- this is where I wait for others to flip out on me... Is a hands-off system where permadeath is not handled from DM's. If we went so far as to go there, build it into the mechanics where subdue turned off leads to death, but add rule subsections to accommodate and prevent griefing. But I know for a fact that is a fantasy that may never come around. :p

There are so many ways a server reboot can take place in the ToT. But I am unsure if we may even get there unless past rulings of time skip and just going with a whole different story arch as proposed in the past will ever get overruled that said so any of this may ever take place.

Discussing it is fine, but I'm not holding my breath either that such things may ever come around. But we shall see!

[Blame The Rogue]

story does not have to equate to mechanics. if the story of ToT is to be told, the DMs can tell it, without unnecessary time and effort on the part of devs, whom most would rather have working on fixes and additions

the server cap has always been 30. the entire server, areas, mobs, dm mobs, gear, all balanced around max level 30. imo there is no need to change it, and if it were changed, everything i just listed would have to be done over again, to "maintain" balance. balance which is already achieved. double the work, and not necessary

[Snarfy]

the server cap has always been 30. the entire server, areas, mobs, dm mobs, gear, all balanced around max level 30. imo there is no need to change it, and if it were changed, everything i just listed would have to be done over again, to "maintain" balance. balance which is already achieved. double the work, and not necessary

Exactly. The ToT, if it's going to happen, can be done with a little creativity. No need to conjure up ideas that involve a rework of the entire server from head to toe.

[Thaelis]

Exactly. The ToT, if it's going to happen, can be done with a little creativity. No need to conjure up ideas that involve a rework of the entire server from head to toe.

I don't think it's necessary at all. And I know it'd be a lot of work (probably an impossible amount of work).

I just think it'd be awesome.

No more campfire discussion of:
"I've killed 20 great wyrm dragons"
"So what? I've killed 200 Balors single handedly"
"So? I have too.."
"Yeah me three!"

And no more 100 Epic spellcasters living in one city

It's a wonder BG hasn't been reduced to rubble yet.

[Tanlaus]

Exactly. The ToT, if it's going to happen, can be done with a little creativity. No need to conjure up ideas that involve a rework of the entire server from head to toe.

I don't think it's necessary at all. And I know it'd be a lot of work (probably an impossible amount of work).

I just think it'd be awesome.

No more campfire discussion of:
"I've killed 20 great wyrm dragons"
"So what? I've killed 200 Balors single handedly"
"So? I have too.."
"Yeah me three!"

And no more 100 Epic spellcasters living in one city

It's a wonder BG hasn't been reduced to rubble yet.

You could accomplish that by making all dragons, pit fiends and balors as tough as the white dragon.

[gedweyignasia]

I think there was some discussion of downscaling all enemies in appearance to reserve the truly epic beasts for DM events. Didn't really get anywhere, but it's possible for the future.

[Tanlaus]

I think there was some discussion of downscaling all enemies in appearance to reserve the truly epic beasts for DM events. Didn't really get anywhere, but it's possible for the future.

I would be in favor of making epic bosses a more epic challenge, particularly Dragons, Pit Fiends and Balors. I'd worry a bit about downscaling appearances just because variety is the spice of life. Like it would make sense- in terms of random adventurers on the Sword Coast- if 90% of the content were variations of orcs, goblins and kobolds, with some bandits, skeletons and zombies thrown in, but it would also get pretty boring. And I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to that extreme, so take that with a grain of salt(or straw rather). I guess I just mean defeating epic enemies is something that players should be able to get a group together and go do, particularly when there is no DM about or even if there is but not something they are involved in. But those enemies don't feel too epic right now.

[Thaelis]

You could accomplish that by making all dragons, pit fiends and balors as tough as the white dragon.

I suppose you could, but tbh a 30th level character should be able to whoop a standard Balor's butt with ease. And even most Dragons.