Upcoming time of troubles

[gedweyignasia]

You could accomplish that by making all dragons, pit fiends and balors as tough as the white dragon.

I suppose you could, but tbh a 30th level character should be able to whoop a standard Balor's butt with ease. And even most Dragons.

I believe the server canon is something along the lines of things being half as powerful as we show them as. So players are effectively level 15 at most, not demi-gods that can kill anything. (Not sure if this is true or if people have been gaslighting me, and don't quite understand how it works with spells like Gate, but I try not to RP my high-levels as being able to raze entire cities.)

[Tanlaus]

You could accomplish that by making all dragons, pit fiends and balors as tough as the white dragon.

I suppose you could, but tbh a 30th level character should be able to whoop a standard Balor's butt with ease. And even most Dragons.

I think for lore purposes players are treated as being half their level. At least that's what I've been told before. Might be listed somewhere or I might be completely wrong. Anyway that would make for a bunch of level 15s in that case, which really shouldn't be fighting dragons without a small army beside them.

I think, ultimately, completely redesigning and rebalancing all of the epic content on the server is probably (again just speculation) off the table. It would be a ton of work. And probably not something our area designers, who are working on their own areas, would be keen to slave away at. Again, not speaking for anyone, but having run through some areas offline to give notes to the builder I can tell you it's really a ton of work. Just a single area.

Spent a couple of hours doing just that last night and hardly covered much of the area.

And again, the class rebalance issues would be huge. Like Snarfy pointed out with rouges, they don't even get precision until epic levels. Could give it to them from the get go, like pathfinder I suppose. So they're not useless against a chunk of content for much of their existence.

Plenty or PRCs would probably have to be compressed from 10 levels to 5 to make them viable. All of those dead levels would be kind of painful otherwise. What makes the game fun is the options you get, either abilities from PRCs or abilities gained in epic levels. That sheer amount of variety available is part of the fun. It would be difficult to keep all of that while cutting ten levels off of the progression.

I just think the amount of work rebalancing all of the classes and PRCs, and rebalancing the content to go with it would be something that takes a development team a tremendous amount of time and effort. And it comes with pretty much invalidating all of the existing characters along with it.

[Rinzler]

I just think the amount of work rebalancing all of the classes and PRCs, and rebalancing the content to go with it would be something that takes a development team a tremendous amount of time and effort. And it comes with pretty much invalidating all of the existing characters along with it.

Yes, an enormous amount of work to create and maintain in addition to the resources taken away to maintain/improve the existing server. I don't want to speak for the dev team either, but if someone could snap their fingers and make magic disappear, update existing areas, creatures, and mechanics; then in 2022, snap their fingers again to revert back to our existing world, maybe.

The fact is, the lore we participate in now has 10+ years of behind the scenes hard work from our area builders & devs and can't simply be tuned off and on like a light switch.

onedoesnotsimplywalkintomordor.gif

[selhan]

Oi! Its simple just make Magic dont work! HAHA

[Hoihe]

You could accomplish that by making all dragons, pit fiends and balors as tough as the white dragon.

I suppose you could, but tbh a 30th level character should be able to whoop a standard Balor's butt with ease. And even most Dragons.

I think for lore purposes players are treated as being half their level. At least that's what I've been told before. Might be listed somewhere or I might be completely wrong. Anyway that would make for a bunch of level 15s in that case, which really shouldn't be fighting dragons without a small army beside them.

I think, ultimately, completely redesigning and rebalancing all of the epic content on the server is probably (again just speculation) off the table. It would be a ton of work. And probably not something our area designers, who are working on their own areas, would be keen to slave away at. Again, not speaking for anyone, but having run through some areas offline to give notes to the builder I can tell you it's really a ton of work. Just a single area.

Spent a couple of hours doing just that last night and hardly covered much of the area.

And again, the class rebalance issues would be huge. Like Snarfy pointed out with rouges, they don't even get precision until epic levels. Could give it to them from the get go, like pathfinder I suppose. So they're not useless against a chunk of content for much of their existence.

Plenty or PRCs would probably have to be compressed from 10 levels to 5 to make them viable. All of those dead levels would be kind of painful otherwise. What makes the game fun is the options you get, either abilities from PRCs or abilities gained in epic levels. That sheer amount of variety available is part of the fun. It would be difficult to keep all of that while cutting ten levels off of the progression.

I just think the amount of work rebalancing all of the classes and PRCs, and rebalancing the content to go with it would be something that takes a development team a tremendous amount of time and effort. And it comes with pretty much invalidating all of the existing characters along with it.

Rather than half-level, everything else should be treated as "twice as powerful."

Level 0 commoners stay level 0.

Level 4 warrior veteran soldiers become level 8 warrior veteran soldiers.

Level 8 orcs become level 16 orcs.

Level 20 Hellfire Wyrms become level 40.


Keeps players their spells, it's just that those spells are less special.

[DaloLorn]

I just think the amount of work rebalancing all of the classes and PRCs, and rebalancing the content to go with it would be something that takes a development team a tremendous amount of time and effort. And it comes with pretty much invalidating all of the existing characters along with it.

Yes, an enormous amount of work to create and maintain in addition to the resources taken away to maintain/improve the existing server. I don't want to speak for the dev team either, but if someone could snap their fingers and make magic disappear, update existing areas, creatures, and mechanics; then in 2022, snap their fingers again to revert back to our existing world, maybe.

The fact is, the lore we participate in now has 10+ years of behind the scenes hard work from our area builders & devs and can't simply be tuned off and on like a light switch.

onedoesnotsimplywalkintomordor.gif

Making magic disappear is a relatively simple task. The easiest option is to add a few new spellhook scripts. One would turn all arcane spells into wild magic (there's actually an existing implementation of a wild magic table for NWN2, so this is definitely doable), while the other would prevent divine spells from being cast unless allowed by the DMs or something. (This is also a task whose viability has been proven by existing work, though I'm uncertain as to the purpose of those scripts.)

The other things were proposed as using the ToT as a justification, like WotC did, for a major setting disruption. If they were implemented at all, I'm under the impression that they wouldn't be reverted at all.

Having said this, my opinion on the whole matter...

• Run the ToT as per canon (specifically, run it with full spell failure), or don't run it at all. Trying to half-ass it would seem to be a great way of ticking off just about all the sides in this conversation, and speaking as someone whose most long-lived characters have typically been spellcasters, I definitely think one could have more interesting RP trying to deal with "my magic is broken" than "my magic is a little glitchy" throughout the duration of the ToT.
• No server wipe. If it were done correctly, I would welcome a rebalancing of the server's mechanics, especially with the IC justification of the ToT... but this is contingent on migrating existing characters to the new system, rather than wiping them out. I've actually been on an NWN:EE server since November, Prisoners of the Mist - while I disagree with some of their design choices, there are many others that I would be glad to see migrated to BG's ruleset. (For instance, while they have a level cap of 20, they also squeeze a lot of extra or free feats into those 20 levels, and several epic feats have been changed to be obtainable in the late teens instead.)

[blowuup]

Time of Troubles only lasts 4 months, not 12. Midway June-October. Just a reminder for those concerned about magic users.
Maybe I'm getting old, 4 months doesn't seem like a long time.

Should also have a 100% RCR afterwards so Clerics can convert from old to new deities.

I'd hate to see this period of time wasted, it gives the DMs a small break from using their creativity juices, and sets up lots of easy plot hooks. Besides, I want to see the rise of Cyric and the civil war within the Zhentarim.

[Hoihe]

Time of Troubles only lasts 4 months, not 12. Midway June-October. Just a reminder for those concerned about magic users.

Should also have a 100% RCR afterwards so Clerics can convert from old to new deities.

I'd rather we skipped deities dying. If we do want to introduce new deities, or change current ones - limit changes to portfolio.

Even though Bhaalite/Banite/Myrkulite afterlife sucks, it is still better than whatever happens after those 3 die. I'd rather PCs and relatives of PCs be left in peace in their afterlives. (or I guess, happily murdering away in case of Bhaal)



Kelemvor and myrkul could be sorted by having Myrkul lose his portfolio in the Faerun Pantheon as the de facto god of death, and be forced into "Fear of death through undeath", while Kelemvor can manifest as a minor deity serving Jergal holding a portfolio like Naralis holds in the Seldarine.

[Vagrant]

Time of Troubles

Simulating the Time of Troubles on a persistent world sounds like torture for our already busy Devs. They do this for free and altering the server mechanics in such a dramatic fashion is likely to be a nightmarish exercise in futility. Unless the devs and Admin were like "Hell-yisss, let's do thisss!".

BGTSCC is more of an impression than a replica of the Forgotten Realms setting. So an impression of the ToT could be done to a much less frustrating effect i believe.

Server Wipe?

Imagine playing on this server for 12+ years pouring your artistic passion into the characters you've created. Hundreds of hours of time, many tears and frustrations. But all worth it. Until someone decides to wipe it all out like chalk dust on a blackboard. Would you really be able to overcome such a punch in the gut enough to muster some faith that the new characters you're forced to build from scratch wont be done the same way? That is like a DM for PnP sitting down at the table and after many years of campaigning with the players says, "Ok everyone tear up your character sheets, we are starting over brand new just because. . ."

Would you want to stay at that table without closure?

Level Cap

Level Cap @ 20? That would be great.

The DMs wouldn't have to build armies of cataclysmic antagonists to compete with the PCs either.

[Almarea90]

Server Wipe?

Imagine playing on this server for 12+ years pouring your artistic passion into the characters you've created. Hundreds of hours of time, many tears and frustrations. But all worth it. Until someone decides to wipe it all out like chalk dust on a blackboard. Would you really be able to overcome such a punch in the gut enough to muster some faith that the new characters you're forced to build from scratch wont be done the same way? That is like a DM for PnP sitting down at the table and after many years of campaigning with the players says, "Ok everyone tear up your character sheets, we are starting over brand new just because. . ."

Would you want to stay at that table without closure?

This.

[Shadowspinner70]

A level 20 cap would indeed be wonderful! But some areas would have to be made epic dungeons, builds will have to be rethought, and classes will have to be balanced with other ways in mind. I've seen level 20 characters on other servers that are on par with level 30s here in terms of power, which I think defeats the purpose of a level cap. So if it's done, it would need to be done right with a long, long period of 100% RCR.

Many people will be frustrated and many others will be relieved that they don't have to pretend they're half their level but still slinging hellballs. A step resembling that would be drastic for many, and it would have to be done right or not at all.

And another +1 to Vagrant's server wipe point.

Time of Troubles, I'd personally love, albeit for some selfish reasons of my own. Maybe if the decision is ever made to lower the cap to 20, the reasoning behind it is an IC one like the ToT or similar event.

[Arn]

For purely selfish reasons, I am ALL FOR the ToT.

My Old Order monk has been saying for years how even the gods are subject to change and death. I would get so much mileage out of the ToT.

...So much... Mi-Leage.

...All right, I'm just going to let myself out now.

[Korchas]

This may be a bit off-topic, but I do not particularly think "But everyone else put so much work into it" is an argument that should be considered in starting something anew or restarting it, much less into current Decisions on Events and such.

There has often been a situation where one or another faction has been unable to act in a way that would fit their plotline due to either, exemplary, the Zhentarim Treaty or similar contracts made 4-12 years ago by people that have since either retired or faded into nigh-obscurity, but efforts to break said treaty have always been countered with either discomfort at changing the status quo or precisely that argument of "But so many people put work into it." Similarly, I do not see anyone having even the slightest chance of damaging any sort of structure on the Coast despite all of us being, even if we go with the server-canon of being level 15, capable of wiping a minor village on our lonesome on that level (discounting the retired adventurers everywhere in the FR lore that'd put a stop to that.)

The result, together with indirect pressure on the player, is a massive turnover rate of Dreadlords because despite all the negative reputation you receive with the title, you are incredibly limited in what you can even -possibly- do. And I am sure there are good guy equivalents likewise that wish they could do plots beyond wiping out the next DM-led horde of (Demons/Devils/Undead/Orcs) and maybe, just maybe, have an effect on the map through, and I know it's a silly example, reformative efforts for the bandits on the Trade way? Replacing them entirely with Goblins, or even downright making the area less threatening. Outrageous, I know.

Yes, they did. And it was amazing Roleplay, and it had a very noticeable effect. But you cannot have everything people put work into stay forever unchanged, or you end up with a huge Behemoth of data that no one can make significant and anywhere near permanent changes to. Which is what I specifically meant with my last interjection before someone, naturally, answered that we have intrigues and plots and such running.

The server did, admittedly, start down a better course by adding new locales, the server split being in the works and a vast number of other, small changes. But as a player, despite all of those world-changing plots, you can rarely affect anything in the game-world in a way that matters or changes the major status quo.

IF we do not go for the Time of Troubles, I would at least ask for us to 100% deviate from any and all canon lore from that point on and maybe also allow more zany plottery like the abovementioned examples. If we do, I would still hope that the floor is opened a tad in regards to not deviating from Lore 'too much' or changing things others did some time way in the past, so that is less restricted.

Lastly, I am still 110% for the Level 20 cap. As it has also been stated before it would not even reduce the total power of players, necessarily, while -severely- downgrading on the genuinely broken builds possible and make it less necessary to buff enemy mobs up to the stupendous degree they have, at times, been buffed to.

Either way, sorry for the wall of text. Had to get that out. Pick apart at your leisure.

[Tanlaus]

This may be a bit off-topic, but I do not particularly think "But everyone else put so much work into it" is an argument that should be considered in starting something anew or restarting it, much less into current Decisions on Events and such.

Again, as far as changing the level cap goes, it's not about how much work has been put into it, but more along the lines of how much would be needed to be done to basically rewrite and rebalance off of the classes and PRCs on top of rebalancing all of the epic level content to go with it. That's a huge amount of work for an entire professional dev team. Not to mention you'd likely split the player base in half at best, with half liking the change and half leaving because of it.

As far as making more permanent changes on the world, yes I agree that would be great. It's not completely unheard of here. The new temple in Soubar, the Radiant Heart having a chapter in Baldur's Gate... there are plenty of examples where things change in the world due to player effort. Could there be more? Sure. I think they just need to be pushed for if it's something people really want...

But getting people to agree on what they really want, that's another issue entirely

[artemitavik]

I'm not actually sure much of the classes would even need rebalance with a level 20 cap, choices would just have to be made more carefully and there would be more focus and less "dipping" just to get an ability or another.

Gear and stores = no change needed at all. All the stuff we have is appropriate for level 20 really.

Yes, you would lose access to the Epic stuff like Expose weakness and the Ranger level 21 abilities for archery or duel wielding, or the rogue's crazy precision, and epic spells. But that is also partially the point for a level 20 cap. Epic levels are great for a targeted campaign with 100% oversight and ongoing balancing, but to have 60 of them running around willy nilly is beyond lore-breaking, and just encourages "Well, guess we'll have to hit them with MOAR damages and make our creatures just resistant to everything!" to be a challenge. Which is silly IMO. (BTW, yes, I know that affects builds, it would totally require a remake of MY build as well)

I"m not sure the areas would need updating, just the creatures that are in the epic areas redone so they're not... well... so epic? and thus doable.

I"ve never seen any ruling officially on "your level 30 character is level 15 in reality" which is a silly thought to me anyway as then you have level 15 people tossing hell balls like mad, wild shaping into dragons, and the like. And if it IS official, it's not readily available as I've looked for it, and I don't think I've seen anyone follow that ideal in any fashion for any length of time, DMs included.

Level 20 would make prestige classes, well.. prestigious... rather than "oh, yeah, well... everyone does that."

Clearly a server wipe is out of the question for multiple reasons, a goodly number of them valid. Ok, no worries on that.

But the ToT represents a period of massive change in how FR reality works. Let's not waste it.