Loot Changes

[Hoihe]

Did another run of frost giant fortress.

https://imgur.com/a/KOFkrG0

Going in: I warded myself from spellbook with Keen Edge on my DPS weapon, IMA, Shield, Mirror Image, Heroism, PfE. Mid-way, I had to recast Shield due to cl 10 caster.

I've stumbled on 2 mystics at once while rounding a corner, making use of HiPS to dodge or mantles to nullify Isaac's + burst of glacial wrath impossible.

Gross income, counting only the chests I looted WITHOUT the boss chests, selling everything to Thunderhammer:
3824 gold
Net income, accounting for consumables
NEGATIVE 1590


Gross income, including mob drops but without boss fight
4196
net income, accounting for consumables
NEGATIVE -77.6

Gross income, including boss chests, but not mob drops
3824
Net income, accounting for consumables
NEGATIVE 1650

Gross income, chests and mob drops - including the king's own drops
10 752
Net income, accounting for consumables
5278




Basically, the only thing that made this run profitable was the ability to solo the FGK. Had I not fought him, I'd have walked away with a loss of 78 gold pieces (essentially, breaking even with marginal loss).

I don't think we should expect level 30s to be able to solo bosses to make profits if they mostly play during dead hours.

Even with soloing the FGK, all the profit came from his personal gold, not the chests.

[matelener]

I think your results might be a bit skewed because of the low sample.


By the way, even "investing" gold into runs can be worth it, it will all pay off as soon as you hit a rarer item - the good stuff easily fetches hundreds of thousands.

[zhazz]

By the way, even "investing" gold into runs can be worth it, it will all pay off as soon as you hit a rarer item - the good stuff easily fetches hundreds of thousands.

Depending on the time frame to hit "the good stuff", and other sources of income, it might be a costly affair.

That aside, most anything worth hundreds of thousands of gold is likely to be traded for another trade only item. Meaning there's no gold income from that amazing drop. Of course it could still be sold for gold, but beyond funding more runs that gold is essentially worthless. This due to very few of the great items ever being sold for gold — they are always traded.

Just take a look at the marketplace forum. Nearly everything on par with, or better than, the epic shop is trade only.
Izzul does a fair job at borrowing out items, making fair/interesting trades, and in general helping other players out. The vast majority of other marketplace topics reserve awesome items for when you happen to specifically have what the seller is looking for.


A bit of a tangent there, I admit. But it (hopefully) serves to illustrate the issue that grinding and spending hundreds of thousands of gold to get an awesome drop will almost only ever result in investment into more grinding, or trading for an upgrade. Either you eventually run out of gold, or you never get the upgrades you are looking for.

[Lux]

Here's a suggestion aimed at addressing one of the problems raised in this thread:

• Diminishing returns

Adjust so that everyone's first loot run is much more rewarding with a generous chance at good gear drops. Every subsequent run will give less bonus until there's none left.

Quick illustration:

Hidden: show

(Image shows that the first run is set to 400%, the second 200%, the third 150%, the fourth 125% and the fifth and every subsequent run at the baseline of 100%.)

I drew it with a rather steep decline after the first run (removed 2/3 of bonus for a total of 50%) and a slower one after that (bonus halved).

Though it might look a bit extreme, it's really more of a re-allocation from loot received later runs to the first run, intended as a leg up for people who are infrequent looters with bigger rewards for the effort put in. But all numbers remain adjustable, of course.

For clarity's sake I want to say that I'm not straight off suggesting an increase in loot by this much. I'm saying adjust loot returns to have this effect. At a wild guess I'd place today's loot returns at somewhere around 150% - 200% in my image.

Reset timer could be once a week, or 6 days + 12h to allow people to repeat the same time every week.






And perhaps this too:

• Group loot bonus per player

Add a small bonus for every member in a group over 1 up to a maximum of, say, 25% (5% bonus each) for 6 player groups, added to the bonus above.

[yyj]

Something that I have noticed after leveling many characters under the new loot system is the following:


Low level characters have a steady gold flow due to the availability of lower level CR areas and that at lower levels you have a wider range of places to go that will yield decent experience and loot. Selling items for 1400 gp is the main reason for this.

i.e.
It takes a lot less time to go from level 1 to 5 than it takes to 25 to 26, and during this leveling, you have access to way more chests than an epic character has, so naturally, the lower level character will be getting gold faster than an epic character.

Higher level characters gold flow is rather different, it's not steady but at some point you get lucky with the loot and find something that you can make bank with , either trade only items, very expensive items, etc (And I watch the Marketplace thread so I know this for a fact)

So yes at epic levels, the gold flow becomes less steady, but when you hit the jackpot, it feels good, it's just a matter of perseverance.

[Blame The Rogue]

which is one of the issues imo. more epic areas are needed, some geared towards parties, others more towards soloing. currently i can see some turning off xp so they can continue a decent and fair gold earning. this shouldnt be necessary. epic pcs should be able to, even with consumable costs, earn a living

this said, i understand more areas will be added as they can, as they take time. i also understand this loot system can be, and likely will be, further tweaked, as necessary

[Wolfrayne]

The problem with increasing the loot even more is that there isnt really anywhere to sink it, sure you have consumables but they can be relatively cheap especially for classes who rely on them less. Eventually you will have people running around (like we do) with litterally millions of gold hoarding things of any real vale.

Look at the leap in price from items with +3 bonus to enchant/stats etc compared to those of +4. BGTSCC has an absolutely terrible economy and has for years, Sure the loot has improved a little but unless you get that lucky drop Its more efficient to make money leveling low level characters then RCR and do it again.

[Steve]

While I’m tickled by the idea of one day opening a chest and finding that perfect Vorpal Longsword of 1d10 Bonus Damage against Paladins—or even a lesser item of “epic” quality that actually suits the PC that looted it...still waiting Ged, I’m still waiting!!! —the fact is the Loot System is the same as it always was: the more RL Time you devote to Lootz Grindz Infinitum Acts, the more loot you will get (epic or rags, hoorah!).

The Loot System is not setup for a casual adventure, where you will have even the remote chance of killing the Balor once every half RL year and gain some Item of value. The player needs to grind the Boss(es) weekly, if not daily, to actually see a payout.

Which brings me to this: why are we even caring about this issue on a named Role-play Server? Lootz Grindz gameplay is mostly OOC. Sorry, but it is true. THERE IS NO LOGICAL BASIS TO EVEN BE ABLE TO KILL A BALOR, DAILY.

On top of that, once you or I have loot grinder until our eyes bled and have equipped our PCs with the best of the best, then what? Does that gear have any positive reflection on the role-play? The storyline? How anothe Character reacts to yours? What does a “full suit” of Epic Epicness do, except make it even EASIER to Grindz Lootz faster?!?

I would generally refrain from using the term circle jerk, but in this case, it’s absolutely appropriate.

[Hoihe]

While I’m tickled by the idea of one day opening a chest and finding that perfect Vorpal Longsword of 1d10 Bonus Damage against Paladins—or even a lesser item of “epic” quality that actually suits the PC that looted it...still waiting Ged, I’m still waiting!!! —the fact is the Loot System is the same as it always was: the more RL Time you devote to Lootz Grindz Infinitum Acts, the more loot you will get (epic or rags, hoorah!).

The Loot System is not setup for a casual adventure, where you will have even the remote chance of killing the Balor once every half RL year and gain some Item of value. The player needs to grind the Boss(es) weekly, if not daily, to actually see a payout.

Which brings me to this: why are we even caring about this issue on a named Role-play Server? Lootz Grindz gameplay is mostly OOC. Sorry, but it is true. THERE IS NO LOGICAL BASIS TO EVEN BE ABLE TO KILL A BALOR, DAILY.

On top of that, once you or I have loot grinder until our eyes bled and have equipped our PCs with the best of the best, then what? Does that gear have any positive reflection on the role-play? The storyline? How anothe Character reacts to yours? What does a “full suit” of Epic Epicness do, except make it even EASIER to Grindz Lootz faster?!?

I would generally refrain from using the term circle jerk, but in this case, it’s absolutely appropriate.

Good equipment can be insurance against DM events.

[Steve]

Good equipment can be insurance against DM events.

Is this really what you believe, Hoihe? You were a DM, you know the DM Client. And I assume you remember that it’s absolutely possible to make Foes to any scale of power far and beyond what a single PC, or group, can muster...no matter how many grandfathered Uber items are equipped. It is far from uncommon to experience and event where the DM has to resurrect the party because they far too quickly rofflestomped the group by not appropriately determine the power level. It’s happened to us all!

But to your point, I actually was once in an Event—as a player, not the DM—in which the event came to a multi-factional group head, with some intensity for all. But then one player came around with their Uber grandfathered weapon, and said to everyone—including the DM—“Let me handle the Big Bad Boss.” So the DM posted the PC to a DM map to have his one-on-one with the Big Bad Boss, leaving all the other 10 players holding their privates in their hands. In a few minutes, the PC was ported back, and the player/PC exclaimed: “We won.”

Even the DM began to publicly lamented letting his event get “ruined” by an Uber geared up PC. And I simply avoided that player since, and still do this day.

Of course, that is a lesson that only takes once to learn. And on top of all that, something you should also know full well Hoihe, is that a DMs greatest act and purpose is not to challenge Players with mechanics, but through psycho-emotional role-play that puts the player in a position of challenge that can result in reward of great amount of the player wishes to take the risk, with their PC.

And really, that is the only thing of value here, because there is no risk CS reward in the mechanics department when a mechanical PC death has no consequence, especially after reaching Level 30.

So again I repeat: loot has a very limited value within the limited mechanics, and as well has no inherent value in role-play, since it is a relational object TO mechanics, falling far short of the unlimited aspects inherent in role-play (or that should be there...and whatever shortcomings you wish to bring up in THAT department, it probably belongs to another thread).

[Blame The Rogue]

i've recently seen a DD get chewed up and spit out by a dm spawned troll, so i have to ask, is there such a thing as "too much" good gear?

as a side note, and perhaps something we can begin a discussion about in new thread. 50ac non-warded, mid 50s warded, has been the benchmark for a while, to be useful in a party, in tough situations. now there seem to be more and more instances creeping up, where 60ac and/or 15dr are not enough. this puts many in a tough spot imo

[Hoihe]

i've recently seen a DD get chewed up and spit out by a dm spawned troll, so i have to ask, is there such a thing as "too much" good gear?

as a side note, and perhaps something we can begin a discussion about in new thread. 50ac non-warded, mid 50s warded, has been the benchmark for a while, to be useful in a party, in tough situations. now there seem to be more and more instances creeping up, where 60ac and/or 15dr are not enough. this puts many in a tough spot imo

This so much.

[yyj]

I think if players are presented with these challenges then maybe we can start coming up with more solutions to situations rather than just seeking to try and do number vs number thing.

Creative solutions like, you would do on a pnp session. Sometimes it's good to have your PC sit down think and analyze situations with others to see different avenues to solve something without having to rely to murder hobo everything.

[Blame The Rogue]

appreciate the opinion, but peaceful solution isnt always an option

[[DM] Grinning Death]

I think if players are presented with these challenges then maybe we can start coming up with more solutions to situations rather than just seeking to try and do number vs number thing.

Creative solutions like, you would do on a pnp session. Sometimes it's good to have your PC sit down think and analyze situations with others to see different avenues to solve something without having to rely to murder hobo everything.

As yyj knows in my events, if you're not able to think without relying solely on your skills and combat prowess, you're gonna have a bad time .