Hilltop Feedback

[TravelingVagrant]

Good morning folks, just wanted to post this on the off-chance that perhaps some folks aren't aware.

My experience with Hilltop has been a very strange one - back when I first started playing (before the loot changes) I was able to get in there and make some good money. That was pretty dang cool, and yet, I totally agree with the idea of scaling the loot around the player's CR - after all, there's really no reason for level 20s to be in there. It's a baby dungeon, for low level players, after all.

That said, the randomized chests, combined with mimics that drop no loot and are substantially stronger than a level 3-6 character, it has become a bit.. discouraging(?) to run.

At level 7, my fighter was still gaining 45-51 XP from killing the Gibberlings, but the chests were treating me as though I was far beyond the intended CR, giving me only ~15-20 GP. What is the intended player CR? If it's much lower than 7, should the mobs be reduced in strength/CR in order to compensate? Or should the chests change the deeper you go in, as the CR increases? Or neither, and my experience with the loot isn't shared?

I only ask that if people participate in discussion that we keep things civil - this is my experience with the dungeon that I wanted to share. Fundamentally I agree with the Dev team's changes to the dungeon, I just feel it may require a little tiny bit of tweaking, potentially.

[zhazz]

I think you might hehe just had bad rolls on loot. I'm pretty sure that both my half-orc and human were getting respectable returns from those chests. Although you might consider moving deeper into the ruins to get the full returns. Depending on your character's race it might also affect things, due to ECL.

[TravelingVagrant]

I think you might hehe just had bad rolls on loot. I'm pretty sure that both my half-orc and human were getting respectable returns from those chests. Although you might consider moving deeper into the ruins to get the full returns. Depending on your character's race it might also affect things, due to ECL.

I was a level 7 Human fighter in the final floor, for reference.

[zhazz]

You might have to move deeper in then. Or you were just unlucky.

[Tanlaus]

I think you might hehe just had bad rolls on loot. I'm pretty sure that both my half-orc and human were getting respectable returns from those chests. Although you might consider moving deeper into the ruins to get the full returns. Depending on your character's race it might also affect things, due to ECL.

I was a level 7 Human fighter in the final floor, for reference.

There is an issue that pops up usually around level 10ish in some dungeons, mostly with ECLs, but 7 should be fine. Would you mind running it again just to be sure? There is a possibility that, like Zhazz pointed out, you just got incredibly unlucky. If it happens again I’ll run a QC toon through here there to check it out.

[TravelingVagrant]

I think you might hehe just had bad rolls on loot. I'm pretty sure that both my half-orc and human were getting respectable returns from those chests. Although you might consider moving deeper into the ruins to get the full returns. Depending on your character's race it might also affect things, due to ECL.

I was a level 7 Human fighter in the final floor, for reference.

There is an issue that pops up usually around level 10ish in some dungeons, mostly with ECLs, but 7 should be fine. Would you mind running it again just to be sure? There is a possibility that, like Zhazz pointed out, you just got incredibly unlucky. If it happens again I’ll run a QC toon through here there to check it out.

Absolutely, I'll run it on the same character for reference, and post back with what I find in the lower floors.

[Tanlaus]

Thanks! I can be a little slow in the forums during the work day but I’ll be sure to check in when I can.

[TravelingVagrant]

Ha..ha.. Just kidding.. everything is mimics with 35 AC

[Tanlaus]

Ha..ha.. Just kidding.. everything is mimics with 35 AC

Oh yeah I think there’s some April Fools joke that I promise you I was completely unaware of until I peeked at discord a few minutes ago. Well, when that is over with... unless you level out by fighting through a horde of mimics first.

[Alexander Holgart]

I did notice very minimal returns from low level chests as well honestly, I've ran multiple dungeons getting nothing from chests apart from 30 gold or something similar. There is much more return from non locked loot sources like bones and corpses, which is a bit counter intuitive, since a chest takes more effort to open.

In general I find much more loot in non locked loot spawns.

[TravelingVagrant]

I think you might hehe just had bad rolls on loot. I'm pretty sure that both my half-orc and human were getting respectable returns from those chests. Although you might consider moving deeper into the ruins to get the full returns. Depending on your character's race it might also affect things, due to ECL.

I was a level 7 Human fighter in the final floor, for reference.

There is an issue that pops up usually around level 10ish in some dungeons, mostly with ECLs, but 7 should be fine. Would you mind running it again just to be sure? There is a possibility that, like Zhazz pointed out, you just got incredibly unlucky. If it happens again I’ll run a QC toon through here there to check it out.

Alrighty, so last night I ran through Hilltop on a level 7 character. From all of the chests except for the previously named Gibberling Chief chest, I only received 15-30GP. This is in contrasts to the skeletons on the third floor (with the Gibberlings and the boss) which dropped a few unidentified items, and a little more gold, roughly averaging around ~150-300.

We also encountered one mimic that we had to run from, as their AC was far too high for us to hit at level 7. For the record, I was a druid wild-shaped into a Wolf with Magic Fang, Jagged Tooth, Fire Weapon, and Bull's Strength.

The kobolds generally gave 20-45 XP, the Bladelings gave around 30-50, and the Gibberlings gave 40-51, showing to me that they were roughly my CR in terms of XP gains.

[Tanlaus]

I was a level 7 Human fighter in the final floor, for reference.

There is an issue that pops up usually around level 10ish in some dungeons, mostly with ECLs, but 7 should be fine. Would you mind running it again just to be sure? There is a possibility that, like Zhazz pointed out, you just got incredibly unlucky. If it happens again I’ll run a QC toon through here there to check it out.

Alrighty, so last night I ran through Hilltop on a level 7 character. From all of the chests except for the previously named Gibberling Chief chest, I only received 15-30GP. This is in contrasts to the skeletons on the third floor (with the Gibberlings and the boss) which dropped a few unidentified items, and a little more gold, roughly averaging around ~150-300.

We also encountered one mimic that we had to run from, as their AC was far too high for us to hit at level 7. For the record, I was a druid wild-shaped into a Wolf with Magic Fang, Jagged Tooth, Fire Weapon, and Bull's Strength.

The kobolds generally gave 20-45 XP, the Bladelings gave around 30-50, and the Gibberlings gave 40-51, showing to me that they were roughly my CR in terms of XP gains.

Hilltop Ruins are listed as CR 2 and Gibberling Caverns are CR 3... so in a sense it is working as intended if you are level 7. But the thought process, last we discussed it in QC, was that it's too restrictive in lower levels. So again, I'll try to make a QC toon this weekend to run it, but my feeling right now is you're probably falling into that sweet (or no so sweet spot) where dungeons are still challenging but not rewarding. I think the plan is to allow looting to be a lot more open up to level 10 or so.

Regardless thanks for the information it all helps to fine tune the looting process.

[Theodore01]

Hilltop Ruins are listed as CR 2 and Gibberling Caverns are CR 3... so in a sense it is working as intended if you are level 7. But the thought process, last we discussed it in QC, was that it's too restrictive in lower levels. So again, I'll try to make a QC toon this weekend to run it, but my feeling right now is you're probably falling into that sweet (or no so sweet spot) where dungeons are still challenging but not rewarding. I think the plan is to allow looting to be a lot more open up to level 10 or so.

That Issue can occur in every level range.

Because we have Dynamic Encounters, so if one goes to a lower CR area with a higher level char. - the spawns scale up (to a degree), give good xp and a challenge, but now only a few coins from chests.

Dynamic Challenge Rating
When a new encounter is spawned its challenge rating can be adjusted based on the player characters present in the area. The system is base-lined on the average level, of the party of the lowest level player character. If this base-line level is higher than the challenge rating of the spawned enemies, then the Dynamic CR system activates. For a solo player the CR can be increased by up to 2, and for groups, depending on size, up to 4. It will never be increased above the base-line level.
With increased challenge rating, comes increased XP and increased quality of dropped loot.
All this means that an area/encounter no longer has a static challenge rating, but rather a small challenge rating window.

Players, that do enjoy playing weaker or suboptimal builds, can often only survive at areas below their CR, especially if alone. (I often play at times with only ~10 people on.)

This is even more of a problem in high CR areas, as there are only a few of them. If ones build is too weak - that toon is totally doomed now because he cannot earn any loot to improve himself anymore.

Finetuning the downscaling of chests - say to 7-8 levels below CR would solve that issue.

[matelener]

Characters of level 7 and above do not profit from the lowest tier of chests (typically found in the lowest CR zones).

[Tanlaus]

Hilltop Ruins are listed as CR 2 and Gibberling Caverns are CR 3... so in a sense it is working as intended if you are level 7. But the thought process, last we discussed it in QC, was that it's too restrictive in lower levels. So again, I'll try to make a QC toon this weekend to run it, but my feeling right now is you're probably falling into that sweet (or no so sweet spot) where dungeons are still challenging but not rewarding. I think the plan is to allow looting to be a lot more open up to level 10 or so.

That Issue can occur in every level range.

Because we have Dynamic Encounters, so if one goes to a lower CR area with a higher level char. - the spawns scale up (to a degree), give good xp and a challenge, but now only a few coins from chests.

Dynamic Challenge Rating
When a new encounter is spawned its challenge rating can be adjusted based on the player characters present in the area. The system is base-lined on the average level, of the party of the lowest level player character. If this base-line level is higher than the challenge rating of the spawned enemies, then the Dynamic CR system activates. For a solo player the CR can be increased by up to 2, and for groups, depending on size, up to 4. It will never be increased above the base-line level.
With increased challenge rating, comes increased XP and increased quality of dropped loot.
All this means that an area/encounter no longer has a static challenge rating, but rather a small challenge rating window.

Players, that do enjoy playing weaker or suboptimal builds, can often only survive at areas below their CR, especially if alone. (I often play at times with only ~10 people on.)

This is even more of a problem in high CR areas, as there are only a few of them. If ones build is too weak - that toon is totally doomed now because he cannot earn any loot to improve himself anymore.

Finetuning the downscaling of chests - say to 7-8 levels below CR would solve that issue.

I believe in epic levels the CR difference as far a lootable chests is already either 10 or close to it.