Suggestion: remove one of the Saves for Weird and PK

[Steve]

An illusionist PC has some powerful spells, but when compared to a Necromancy or Enchanter, the Big spells of Phantasmal Killer and Weird fail to Mind Immunity, Fear Immunity, AND have to pass both a Will then a Fortitude save.

It’s just a lot of potential failure to overcome for the Illusionist, and I think this is why we see on BGTSCC far more Necro and Enchanto focused mages—power corrupts!!!

Is there some valid argument against making it less UNLIKELY for these Illusion spells? I’m not here to swing the power creep my way, but I can honestly say that in my 10+ years on BGTSCC, I’ve never grouped up with an illusionist PC. And somehow I think that’s sad!

[Rhifox]

I wouldn't mind making Weird and PK just will saves. Or making Weird like its pnp version where the target is still *stunned* when it *succeeds* on the save, in addition to the 3d6 damage (which could do with being upgraded like other spell damages have been).

[Louvaine]

I admit that I chose necromancy over illusion mainly because how illusion is just weaker version of necromancy in so many regards.

OP has a good point.

[Rhifox]

Solipsism is super good, though. And Shadow Simulacrum. Otherwise... yeah, eh. Of course, both of those are more 'better-than-enchantment enchantment spells' rather than necromancy analogues. xD

[Lux]

I've gone through Illusion spells recently too and I can see where OP is coming from. I always avoid these spells precisely for that reason. Some kind of changes would be good, I think.

[matelener]

Sure, these aren't good nor popular spells. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to oversimplify things - because that's just boring. So, personally, I'd keep both checks but focused more on penalties between the first and the second and maybe get some inspiration from 5e.

Weird:

Animation duration: 5 rounds

1) Will save check every round. Success: nothing happens. You're immune to Weird for the rest of the duration.
2) Fail: (Caster level / 3) * d10 damage and the target becomes panicked. Fort check.
3) Fail: Death.

[Steve]

Solipsism is super good, though.

It is good. Yet even a high INT Wizard is only going to have 5 castings of Level 7 spells. The caster will need Shadow Shield, Spell Mantle, Ethereal Jaunt, maybe one of the many dmg-based lvl 7 spells, or just 2 Solipsisms.

What do you think the non-Shadow Adept DC is going to be? Probably 34 for Solipsism, and you have to beat SR as well (and with the proliferation of SR32 cloaks and shields on the Server....).

So your hope is what, cast Mind Fog, your foe fails THAT Will save—at a lower DC!!—then is at -10 Will to fail the Solipsism. And add up that Will saves are jacked artificially around the Server on all Bosses, most mobs as well. Not to forget to mention one wouldn't even utilize this spell on anything but a Boss or in PvP.

It's really a major dice roller of a spell, which is fun to do, but is still threading the needle. Compared to Enchantment spells, a Enchanter can "capture" a mob and use it for much more, where Solipsism is a simply a Fail and Die spell, with serious luck needed!

[Louvaine]

I always wondered if there could be more done on Spell Focus' feats. Seems only Evo, Conju, Necro and Trans got something worth attention. Maybe this is the way to go... somehow?

[c2k]

honestly think both spells are fine, especially since they do get around Death immunity on this server. But if you want to tweak weird, use something along the lines of what matelener suggested: have the will save trigger first. if they pass, nothing happens. if they fail, have it deal some type of damage on par with a 9th level AoE spell and then force the fort save. if they fail the fort save, death.

Same can be done on a lower scale with PK.



I do think Illusion is one of the best schools on this server, perhaps not damage-wise, but the utility is so good with all the added spells.

[Steve]

I do think Illusion is one of the best schools on this server, perhaps not damage-wise, but the utility is so good with all the added spells.

Please elucidate! Are you referring to the “Image” line of spells? Do you find the Conjure Shadow spells useful?

Also, I thought Death Ward had been nerfed in a way to provide other Schools spells to bypass, now.

just boring.

Personally, I think this quote can be applied the whole of the available Illusion School, perhaps all the Schools. Why? It’s a massively limited selection—especially for the Illusion school—which is not just BGTSCC, but even apparent in the Spell Compendium.

Simply put, the Illusion school is most distractions and defense through illusory, magical aids. And it’s the majority of single target, except for Weird. And DCs are not always correct! I mean, even the basic and bread+and-butter Change Self illusion spell is spell school DC minus 10, where in PnP it’s spell school DC PLUS 10!!

Nonetheless, it’s nobody’s fault here, just that in the context of mechanics of the BGTSCC server and NWN2 ENGINE, as you can see from the number of actual Illusionist PCs in play, or ever in play, the School overall underperforms.

Which is just sad because it has such great potential! There are 206 Illusion School spells on DND Tools, and one can only imagine the boon for BGTSCC if a talented scripter could bring some more Illusion spells to BGTSCC. JUST IMAGINE!!!

EDIT: fixed phone typos

[Rhifox]

Rose Rivineth is an illusionist and actually made some great use of all the various distraction illusion spells during the last mage duel tournament. Was actually an amazing sight to see. Tons of copies of herself and other things summoned, half of them real and half of them fake, while Sirion kept going after the wrong image because he couldn't be sure which was which.

She still lost in the end, sadly, but it was nice to see an illusionist that actually does illusion stuff.

[Steve]

Rose Rivineth is an illusionist and actually made some great use of all the various distraction illusion spells during the last mage duel tournament. Was actually an amazing sight to see. Tons of copies of herself and other things summoned, half of them real and half of them fake, while Sirion kept going after the wrong image because he couldn't be sure which was which.

She still lost in the end, sadly, but it was nice to see an illusionist that actually does illusion stuff.

Well, that is undeniably awesome to read about. I'm thinking of something similar when considering how an Illusionist could be RP'd. But still, as you say, they lost. And though I'm not arguing that an Illusionist should always win, what I'm trying to balance out here is how an Illusionist can successfully navigate the Content, the Areas and the Mobs/Bosses, without essentially being a backdrop character with a 50/50 one-shot option to help the Group.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Mirror Image? Displacement? Ghostly Image? These three spells make any gish untouchable with the right AC.

Shades? Protection from spells, shadow shield, premonition and shield all in one super long spell.

And let's not forget about literally the most useful spell on the server, Invisibility.

Some spell schools are meant for damage and death. Other schools have their place and function, such as avoiding damage and misdirection, which is the entire idea behind spell schools in the first place. Not every tool needs to be a hammer in the toolbox, so to speak.

These are just my thoughts though as a player, not as staff.

[Steve]

Mirror Image? Displacement? Ghostly Image? These three spells make any gish untouchable with the right AC.

Shades? Protection from spells, shadow shield, premonition and shield all in one super long spell.

And let's not forget about literally the most useful spell on the server, Invisibility.

Some spell schools are meant for damage and death. Other schools have their place and function, such as avoiding damage and misdirection, which is the entire idea behind spell schools in the first place. Not every tool needs to be a hammer in the toolbox, so to speak.

These are just my thoughts though as a player, not as staff.

Oh, I absolutely agree. But how do you gain XP from killing mobs when all you can do is not get hit?

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Use a wrench! Or a missile storm