Heartwarder PRC

[Anrilor]

Also at what point would a dwarf want to become fey, why would the dwarven God turn their followers into a fey? Elven blood is sacred, some more heretical elves would actually look down on fey elven as mudding the waters. Sharress sensual pleasure for ones self and partner.... and cats. Nothing to do with fey.

None of these make sense for the lore of the class which is purposed. If you want to do a similar class by all means you can request it, but it does not have to be in here.

The issue with why the class was initially turned down from Kadrins is because of the 5 cha for the full class. It was too op for spontaneous casters, there for FVS and too easy to achieve edm levels. I really like the changes endolyn offered to keep it within the power levels of the server along with keeping it true to pnp. I want flavor classes not power classes.

The powerbuildy stuff is the "take out dodge mobility" line from Fallenstar/AgentOrange

[Diamore]

The reasoning for a Heartwarden becoming a fey is "she transends mortal definitions of beauty". That's it. Even Faiths and Avatars only explained it as a spell they could use to become a dryad permanently to avoid being cast out of the church due to the "ravages of old age". There is no other clear link between Sune followers becoming fey that I can find.

Just replace that with hedonist, indulgent, romantic or lover and you have your answer. Or in most cases it could continue to be beauty as the listed religions fit with that angle without any change or explanation.

While dwarves might seem to be the odd ones out, it is identical to the way a spirit shaman becomes one of the fey as well. By embodying the essence of their nature they take on the attributes of the fey. They do not become Fey in the proposed version, simply becoming fey-like as if their ancestry included them. Something a player can already do on a dwarf if they choose.

[Xorena]

I would rather see this PRC get the no from staff rather then see it open to another faith/build/powergamey thing yall are trying to turn this into.

Dreadlord exists for banites

Silverstar exists for Selunites

Heartwarder should exist for Sunites.

If the staff doesn't want to do another exclusive PRC so be it. I would rather the no then ruin this class RP wise.

Morninglord for Lathander.

[Deathgrowl]

I would rather see this PRC get the no from staff rather then see it open to another faith/build/powergamey thing yall are trying to turn this into.

Dreadlord exists for banites

Silverstar exists for Selunites

Heartwarder should exist for Sunites.

If the staff doesn't want to do another exclusive PRC so be it. I would rather the no then ruin this class RP wise.

Morninglord for Lathander.

Stormlord for Talos.

And there are many others that could be added (and one we already have that could be changed back into its actual lore description).

[Hydros]

I would rather see this PRC get the no from staff rather then see it open to another faith/build/powergamey thing yall are trying to turn this into.

Dreadlord exists for banites

Silverstar exists for Selunites

Heartwarder should exist for Sunites.

If the staff doesn't want to do another exclusive PRC so be it. I would rather the no then ruin this class RP wise.

Morninglord for Lathander.

Stormlord for Talos.

And there are many others that could be added (and one we already have that could be changed back into its actual lore description).

Don't forget good ol' Shadow Adept!

[Diamore]

And Techsmith of Gond which brings the number of single deity classes up to six.

Builders spending time creating, testing and implementing a prestige class for only one god (that is predominantly a human god) is what I would call ridiculous. Especially when you precede that sequence six times for classes that will only be used for a single god out of 125 available options. That's a LOT of characters and builds that lack any kind of support from prestige classes to fully theme or flesh out.

The above point still stands.

I also disagreed with Dreadmaster, Morninglord and Stormlord being single deity exclusive as all of them have very clear archetypes that fit other related deities.

Just because deity specific classes exist, doesn't counter any of my points about ensuring new classes are available to a broader selection of deities that do not conflict with the basis of the class.

[Hydros]

And is countered by the point that most of the people who use these classes, use them because they enjoy the lore behind them, and what that entails. Opening them up removes all that lore and history behind the class, and therefore invalidates the primary reason most people pick them. Trying to ruin peoples fun for the sake of "Inclusivity" isn't a good thing.

[AsuraKing]

I have no real input on Heartwarder, but as someone who plays one of the listed god restricted classes. Opening up the doors to other gods is lorebreaking and would ruin the classes in my eyes.

[Ravial]

Tabletop is too rigid and annoying, we shouldn't just follow blindly. Why keep the same nonsensical requirements when the class is losing a big bonus?

Who would have thought that Deities themselves could demand something from their followers before granting them superpowers. That is aside from how abusable would the PRC be without the mentioned restrictions.


As for the opening deity-restricted classes to followers of more deities:

Watering down lore-flavourful classes is how you slowly remove bricks from enjoying the lore of the setting, just like it happened with Darkflame Zealot. Single deity restricted classes are meant to further the roleplay and certain aspects of faith. Heartwarders aren't even the majority of Sunite priesthood. They are an order that focuses on passionate aspects of love and beauty, which is why their typical societal works centre around that. They are also THE Sunite priests that abhor violence the most.

Comparing that to Sharess (who has her own PRC, Celebrants of Sharess, btw)... I mean, Sharess is a deity of downright lust and excess. Sharess' goals are not
close to Sune, since Sharess only ever cares about bodily pleasure and not passionate love.

Furthermore, Hanali Celanil having access to this class is the toppest of keks. Worshippers of Hanali are people that create celebrations, oversee the passage of elves into adulthood and preside over the marriage of elves. According to Elves of Evermeet and Evermeet: The Isle of Elves, the most extremist and zealous Hanalites marry for life with the first person that they see upon Midsummers' Eve. Her goal in supporting love between elves is likewise for it to "reach the fullest bloom", which is in a form of conceiving a child- the greatest creation of beauty that they believe in. Hanalites are also much more interested in natural beauty- most of them being gardeners as a result.

Yeah, sure, they are both goddesses of beauty and love, but they all take it differently.

Sharindlar, on the other hand, focuses primarily on fertility, courtship and mercy. Her priests within dwarven communities have a gigantic focus on helping the downtrodden, promoting mercy and funding charities for dwarves in need. The other focus is on teaching traditional ways of courtship and encouraging young dwarves to marry early and have the most amount of children that is possible. Dwarven love is INCREDIBLY intimate and private. Nothing a Heartwarder does.



As for becoming a fey: Yeah sure, transcendents beauty of mortals. But anyone that can read can realise that when you take upon Fey creature type, it means you do actually become a FEY. Hanalites don't need that, because elven beauty is eternal- a gift to Hanali from Labelas. They aren't marred by time. Their physical allure is close to feyish one (nymphs, for example).

Dwarves are opposed to Fey, due to their innate Lawful Nature. There are very few fey creatures they tolerate and all of them are earth-bound. Sharindlar is a bit of a weirdo in the Dwarven Pantheon, being CG, but she also has very few fey servitors. Only dryads, sylphs and korreds, which compared to other deities of love-related stuff is nothing.


The weirdest assumption ever I've seen is that Oghma, Isis or Eilistraee could have the class open to themselves. Especially Oghma. He is NOTHING about love and beauty. Absolutely nothing. Isis is closer, but she's a lifegiver, not a deity of Beauty. Her goal is to encourage marriage and births through love- more close to Shialia than anyone else. Eilistraee? Sure. She has a portfolio of Beauty, but she isn't about any romance or love. Her primary work is trying to encourage peace between drow and others. Promoting kindness among her followers. Beauty is just a side aspect in her entire worship. Besides, she also has her own PRC (Sword Dancers).


I understand that there are concerns for "Lack of fairness" because of certain faiths having their own PRCs. In all honesty, none of those cleric PRCs is needed at all. Pure clerics tend to be a better choice to play, often, if we care about mechanics. PRCs are meant to give priests of a particular deity a roleplay flavour with certain okay but not groundbreaking powers and that's about it. If you want to make the game fair, you need to kill off the majority of deities that are not Greater Deities and leave the game with one to three deities for every species in the game. Otherwise, nothing will be fair as gods against each other themselves have unfair battles

In case of dev time in regards to it- Devs decide what they want to spend time on. It's not ridiculous if they want to bring more flavour roleplay to the setting and server that is meant to be a roleplay server, where you roleplay characters living in Forgotten Realms setting and its reality. As such, any addition that enhances the experience of certain aspects of the lore of the setting is absolutely opposite to "ridiculous". It is something that is, in fact, expected to happen.

TL;DR

Leave Heartwarder as Endelyon described it. Meddling with allowing other gods' worshippers to have the class is doing a major disservice to every deity involved. Let everyone have their fun with the lore they absolutely adore about Forgotten Realms, that is the reason for the setting's existence. And remember, pineapple belongs on pizza.

[FallingStar]

Who would have thought that Deities themselves could demand something from their followers before granting them superpowers. That is aside from how abusable would the PRC be without the mentioned restrictions.

That's a lot of snark.

But I'll address your point anyway.

The PrC isn't overpowered (and lost a big bonus with the CHA hit), and you're bringing lore to a mechanical discussion, where it doesn't belong. Building should be made easier, not harder, for players, regardless of whatever lore components come into the equation.

[Hydros]

Who would have thought that Deities themselves could demand something from their followers before granting them superpowers. That is aside from how abusable would the PRC be without the mentioned restrictions.

That's a lot of snark.

But I'll address your point anyway.

The PrC isn't overpowered (and lost a big bonus with the CHA hit), and you're bringing lore to a mechanical discussion, where it doesn't belong. Building should be made easier, not harder, for players, regardless of whatever lore components come into the equation.

You want to take away the two feats that actually limit the class from being able to be min-maxed, feats that, I might add, are requirements in the PnP version of the class too. Lore also very much matters in this, since an argument was being made about who the class should be open to, given it's a class steeped in Lore, it's very relevant, and appropriate.

[Bobthehero]

It's the usual BG tendency of making everything suck because ''scary powerbuilding'' or something, as if it couldn't be done already. The classes loses a lot of its upsides. Lowering the CHA bonus from 5 to 2 is against TT, but apparently that's fine, of course, because we gotta nerf things. But how dare one wishes to lower the requirements as a results of lowering the overall class power, what a crime!

[FallingStar]

It's the usual BG tendency of making everything suck because ''scary powerbuilding'' or something, as if it couldn't be done already. The classes loses a lot of its upsides. Lowering the CHA bonus from 5 to 2 is against TT, but apparently that's fine, of course, because we gotta nerf things. But how dare one wishes to lower the requirements as a results of lowering the overall class power, what a crime!

Apparently promoting and utilizing synergy is powerbuilding now.

[Hydros]

The nerf made to the class is reasonable, and thus I proposed what I would consider a reasonable ajustment to the reqs for the class. Taking away 2 feats that also have an attribute requirement that, without said feats, would rarely ever be met, would give the class far more potential strength than is being lost from the -3 Charisma from the base variant.

BG's baseline for power is far below that of Tabletop, where things like Duskblade exist, nerfs to added Classes should be expected.

[mastajabba]

I see a lot of crying and complaining from people who no longer actively play in the server.

I think it’s a cool class for a certain type of character.

I also think those who don’t play shouldn’t care because it doesn’t affect them in anyway. So so long, Godspeed and happy trails...