Heartwarder PRC

[Ravial]

Who would have thought that Deities themselves could demand something from their followers before granting them superpowers. That is aside from how abusable would the PRC be without the mentioned restrictions.

That's a lot of snark.

But I'll address your point anyway.

The PrC isn't overpowered (and lost a big bonus with the CHA hit), and you're bringing lore to a mechanical discussion, where it doesn't belong. Building should be made easier, not harder, for players, regardless of whatever lore components come into the equation.

I'm sorry, but wanting to open the requirements to other deities is DEFINITELY a lore discussion. But maybe you should actually read my post in order to understand what I'm talking about.

[FallingStar]

Who would have thought that Deities themselves could demand something from their followers before granting them superpowers. That is aside from how abusable would the PRC be without the mentioned restrictions.

That's a lot of snark.

But I'll address your point anyway.

The PrC isn't overpowered (and lost a big bonus with the CHA hit), and you're bringing lore to a mechanical discussion, where it doesn't belong. Building should be made easier, not harder, for players, regardless of whatever lore components come into the equation.

I'm sorry, but wanting to open the requirements to other deities is DEFINITELY a lore discussion. But maybe you should actually read my post in order to understand what I'm talking about.

...I wasn't talking about opening up the PrC to devouts of other dieties, I don't have a dog in that fight. That's not what I addressed at all.

Don't @ me if you're not going to read my posts.

[FallingStar]

I see a lot of crying and complaining from people who no longer actively play in the server.

I think it’s a cool class for a certain type of character.

I also think those who don’t play shouldn’t care because it doesn’t affect them in anyway. So so long, Godspeed and happy trails...

So taking a break precludes one from having an opinion about possible changes.

[Hydros]

That's a lot of snark.

But I'll address your point anyway.

The PrC isn't overpowered (and lost a big bonus with the CHA hit), and you're bringing lore to a mechanical discussion, where it doesn't belong. Building should be made easier, not harder, for players, regardless of whatever lore components come into the equation.

I'm sorry, but wanting to open the requirements to other deities is DEFINITELY a lore discussion. But maybe you should actually read my post in order to understand what I'm talking about.

...I wasn't talking about opening up the PrC to devouts of other dieties, I don't have a dog in that fight. That's not what I addressed at all.

Don't @ me if you're not going to read my posts.

You might not have been arguing for opening it up, but the quote of yours the comment was directed at very much was inclusive of both mechanical, and lore arguments, given the mechanical requirements for a religion specific PrC are rather involved in the lore. Your post seems to have been read rather clearly, you just don't like how it was responded to.

[c2k]

I think Endelyon's version appears to solve the issues of why it was never implemented. Though I could agree it might be too weak. Perhaps Heart of Passion could also add Charms/Day that has strength based off of levels in Heartwarder. Should probably allow CN as well, since Priests/Priestesses of Sune can be CN.

It should stay requiring Sune as a Diety too, IMO. Its a status of Sune's highest clergy.

[Anrilor]

I think Endelyon's version appears to solve the issues of why it was never implemented. Though I could agree it might be too weak. Perhaps Heart of Passion could also add Charms/Day that has strength based off of levels in Heartwarder. Should probably allow CN as well, since Priests/Priestesses of Sune can be CN.

It should stay requiring Sune as a Diety too, IMO. Its a status of Sune's highest clergy.

The reason that I would disagree with the CN alignment is because the Heartwarder is dedicated to raising up the hearts and minds of those around her, CN tend to just help people if it helps themselves. While I do not disagree that sunite priestesses could be CN, I don't think the highest ideals of the faith would be adhered to as a CN character.

[c2k]

The reason that I would disagree with the CN alignment is because the Heartwarder is dedicated to raising up the hearts and minds of those around her, CN tend to just help people if it helps themselves. While I do not disagree that sunite priestesses could be CN, I don't think the highest ideals of the faith would be adhered to as a CN character.

That is not true. CN are free spirits in that they do what ever urges them to do so. They can easily do things that don't benefit themselves.

LN is the alignement where someone looks for gain in doing an action. Like a Sellsword contract; you pay me gold, I will fight for you.

[Ravial]

I mean, a Deity that might require their follower to be altruistic and not "Throw hands up, do whatever I want!" is nothing strange for the setting. Them not being allowed to be CN makes PERFECT sense.

LN is having a personal code that you always keep and having no regard for morality, whichever side it is. That's it. (Although it does mention that Neutral alignment does prefer having good aligned neighbours over evil ones )

[Diamore]

And is countered by the point that most of the people who use these classes, use them because they enjoy the lore behind them, and what that entails.

The use of these classes by players does not counter my point that they cater to a small number of gods out of a mountain of unsupported options. It actually exaggerates it as deities whose role is similar to one of the favoured classes will go unchosen due to the lack of mechanics and prestige support.

Opening them up removes all that lore and history behind the class, and therefore invalidates the primary reason most people pick them.

This doesn't appear to be true. Your cleric could claim to be Hearwarder already, modifying the proposed class would not invalidate the lore associated with the role. If the lore is the primary reason it is being chosen, then it doesn't need to exist at all.

Trying to ruin peoples fun for the sake of "Inclusivity" isn't a good thing.

I have not tried to ruin anyone's fun. This ascribes ill intent to my points and position that simply doesn't exist.

Watering down lore-flavourful classes is how you slowly remove bricks from enjoying the lore of the setting, just like it happened with Darkflame Zealot.

Darkflame Zealot appears with the same restrictions and lore as it did in the Complete Divine. This appears to be a terrible example of what you are attempting to describe as the loss of the Kossuth requirement from Unapproachable East is the perfect demonstration of modifying a class that could conceivably be used by several other religions without affecting the feel of the class or its purpose.

Single deity restricted classes are meant to further the roleplay and certain aspects of faith.

I disagree, but assuming this is true this would not require a prestige class. Only a player who really embodied a specific ideal and lore role through their RP.

Comparing that to Sharess (who has her own PRC, Celebrants of Sharess, btw)...

Furthermore, Hanali Celanil having access to this class is the toppest of keks...

Yeah, sure, they are both goddesses of beauty and love, but they all take it differently.

Sharindlar, on the other hand, focuses primarily on fertility... Nothing a Heartwarder does.

These examples actually demonstrate that the Heartwarder class could very easily, without change, represent these roles and religious aspects and goals as well.

As for becoming a fey: Yeah sure, transcendents beauty of mortals. But anyone that can read can realise that when you take upon Fey creature type, it means you do actually become a FEY.

The play your sheet rule and the suggested implementation of this class disagree with you.

Dwarves are opposed to Fey, due to their innate Lawful Nature. There are very few fey creatures they tolerate and all of them are earth-bound.

The Dwarven Paragon is any alignment. The race has no details in its entry about a preferred Lawful alignment. There is nothing in their character or general history that leads one to support these ideas.

Sharindlar is a bit of a weirdo in the Dwarven Pantheon, being CG, but she also has very few fey servitors. Only dryads, sylphs and korreds, which compared to other deities of love-related stuff is nothing.

So she does fit the class. Because she is an exception to the other dwarves. Agreed.

The weirdest assumption ever I've seen is that Oghma, Isis or Eilistraee could have the class open to themselves. Especially Oghma. He is NOTHING about love and beauty...

Agreed. Which is why I am not arguing for his inclusion only stating one could make that argument in good faith and still have clear evidence to support it. I won't make this case as you are already stretching the discussion in directions I had no interest in.

I understand that there are concerns for "Lack of fairness" because of certain faiths having their own PRCs.

Then address the point.

PRCs are meant to give priests of a particular deity a roleplay flavour with certain okay but not groundbreaking powers and that's about it.

Agreed. So why is there a problem?

If you want to make the game fair, you need to kill off the majority of deities that are not Greater Deities and leave the game with one to three deities for every species in the game. Otherwise, nothing will be fair as gods against each other themselves have unfair battles

This appears to be purposefully missing the point I've made. It has nothing to do with game balance. This is about supporting options and deities that have none and likely are never going to receive any.

Let everyone have their fun with the lore they absolutely adore about Forgotten Realms, that is the reason for the setting's existence.

The existing lore does support a class exactly like Heartwarden being used by the listed deities to represent an especially devout and peaceful worshipper.

[Ravial]

...I wasn't talking about opening up the PrC to devouts of other deities, I don't have a dog in that fight. That's not what I addressed at all.

Don't @ me if you're not going to read my posts.

I mean no offence, but you did say that I am bringing lore to a mechanical discussion, where it supposedly "doesn't belong". This is why I have encouraged you to read my post in full so that you might glean into why I think it, actually, absolutely belongs here.

[Ravial]

Oooooh boi.

Diamore, fully honest. Saying that there's nothing written about that Dwarves are naturally aligned towards Law is making me think you're arguing just for the sake of having an argument. I just don't know how to respond to you. I'm sorry.

[FallingStar]

I'm sorry, but wanting to open the requirements to other deities is DEFINITELY a lore discussion. But maybe you should actually read my post in order to understand what I'm talking about.

...I wasn't talking about opening up the PrC to devouts of other dieties, I don't have a dog in that fight. That's not what I addressed at all.

Don't @ me if you're not going to read my posts.

You might not have been arguing for opening it up, but the quote of yours the comment was directed at very much was inclusive of both mechanical, and lore arguments, given the mechanical requirements for a religion specific PrC are rather involved in the lore. Your post seems to have been read rather clearly, you just don't like how it was responded to.

How presumptuous of you.

Again, I wasn't even addressing the idea of opening the PrC up to devouts of other dieties. That issue is not on my radar.

[Planehopper]

Keep on the topic, and discuss ideas, or stop posting. This community isn't served by back and forth toxicity about personalities, and we really don't want to lock a thread because you can't help but snark back and forth.

If you have a personal issue, go to PMs, or better yet just do something else?

Further posts in violation of the rules or decorum of the forums will be handled individually. Thank you.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Let Anrilor have her Heartwarder class,

This, honestly, is my main issue with the class. I feel it's really tailored towards a single person. Sure, others in the future could use it. But realistically, it's time that coders and content makers would be taking to make a PrC that benefits a single person, rather than the server.

I don't really have a dog in the fight other than this. Whether it's OP or not, I'll leave that to others to decide. My only issue is as stated. If a coder is going to add something, let them add something that benefits more than one player.

[Xorena]

I disagree, JAG.

Look at this Census of players, which includes how many of these PRCs are actively played (this is from 2018 but maybe there's a more recent version)

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=68462&hilit=2018#p849967

Silverstar = 7 (Selune)
Dreadmaster = 12 (Bane)
Stormlord = 16 (Talos)
Doomguide = 17 (this is Morninglord of Lathander)

Edited to add a couple more:

Shadow Adept = 26 (well I guess Shar is secretive)
Techsmith of Gond = 41 (Gond, who knew there were so many?!)


I cannot name more than one or two Stormlords. I know a single Dreadmaster. I knew a Silverstar but she doesn't play anymore. I know one Morninglord playing now. More than Anrilor will play a Heartwarder, I guarantee.

Lots of people play on this server who never come out and say what their builds are. Some do not even post on the forums.

I am personally in favor of adding Heartwarder if that at all matters.