Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

[Snarfy]

^ and ^ ... what they said. I have 3 UD toons, and know full well how difficult it is to level via combat down there. Add surfacers crashing zones for bosses and loot to the mix and all you get is a recipe for frustration.

The server plan for the Underdark is not sustainable for the current population.

Underdark population is, IMHO, low for numerous reasons that aren't necessarily tied to cooperative surface RP, or treasure.

#1. The UD is a fairly niche setting. Unless a player is up to speed on the lore, they are likely going to suffer from an inferiority complex in no time. Learning all that drow-speak, ie jabress, ilharess, kivvil, rivvil, darthiir, is also daunting. After a decade of playing on BG I only know what xas and nau mean. To new players and the UD-uninitiated, all that learning probably seems like a steep price to pay for a culture that probably seems one-dimensional("Vendui, are you a vile, cunning, schemer of a drow? Me too! Let's go murder things, muhaha!"), even though it's really not(I think).

#2. The UD layout is just brutal to learn. And aside from a few of the population centers, trade hubs, and epic areas, it is NOT nice to look at. The vast majority of the maps might as well be named "Confusing ass pitch black maze 1 through 30". Maybe if the terrain in more areas looked like Mist Lake or, even better, something resembling this, it might draw more players in.

#3. ECL sucks. Need I say more?

All that being said, UD-surface relations still take place. I see the odd surfacer wander through Sshamath, and then there's good old Soubar, which is fine by me. But would it really improve the state of RP to see mixed groups plowing through zones for loot? Or to run into an opposing group in an area that you had a quest in, or wanted to adventure grind in? I would wager this would just end up pissing off players, because if there's one thing that hasn't aged well on BG over the years, it's their ability to handle conflict/PvP.

[Almarea90]

Again, this justified the removal of loot and grinding exp cross-realm, but does not explain the removal of RP experience, which imho should be allowed.

If there is an issue of people poorly handling PvP cross-realm then it would probably be wise to remove or mitigate kill on sight in order to offer a chance to opt out or at the very least some form of emote/RP before mechanically attacking.

[Snarfy]

I don't even think I knew RP xp didn't work, that definitely could use a look-see, but can the engine differentiate between types of xp?

[Deathgrowl]

but does not explain the removal of RP experience, which imho should be allowed.

If this is actually the case, then it wasn't intended as far as I am aware. What was disabled was kill-xp and looting on the other side. RP-XP should function as normal.

[Almarea90]

I am not sure if it has changed, but around last year an UD player complained they wouldn't get RP exp on the surface. By all means I haven't checked recently so I can be wrong.

[Blaze]

I understand not wanting to act like PnP, but removing the KoS rule would be too much in terms of the likelihood of what D&D is.

Drow are 98% evil (the remaining 2% are made up of Elistraee drow who basically hide from the outside world and would never get near the cities).
A drow therefore has the same value as an orc, a demon, a devil, a gnoll, a troll, etc, they are creatures with corrupted blood and, especially characters with a certain type of alignment and class, will have every reason to kill them on sight. Especially if you don't have lore religion, then you don't have the knowledge to know who is Elistraee and therefore to know that there are good drow along with evil ones.

I am against PvP because in my opinion it leads to nothing but a demonstration to who has the strongest build, who has more potions and wands, who has the most knowledge of NWN2's mechanics, but in any case I argue that the Underdark races( except svirfneblin ) should be treated like the monsters we kill to get xp.

Obviously there are exceptions, there are those who, before pressing hostile, prefer to do some RP and ask questions, Lolth slavers could have a high bluff score or diplomacy to try to resolve everything without having hostile attitudes.

As for drow/duergar, I would see them well in certain areas near Soubar as they can roam without being killed. For example I would give them the chance to go to the troll dungeon, stone giants, gray peaks.

[Almarea90]

KoS as is now is more like ganking imho. I would put the obligation of emoting at least once or even better give a PvP out decided by the offender.
The monsters you attack while grinding don't have a player behind and are incapable of RPing which should be the main focus of the server.

In regards of the drow being 98% evil (which is not even true as I recall a handbook saying 15% if not 25% is neutral) the same can be said for people with the symbols of evil deities, Zhentarim and red wizards but there's no KoS for them and there shouldn't be.

[Dragonslayer]

It's my personal belief that RP should always precede PvP situations in some fashion. Whether that's emoting a blade being drawn, a spell cast, or emotion on the character's face. It's a roleplay server, after all! It's no fun if you don't build a story with the other character.

[The Whistler]

snip

Be that as it may the UD population is not healthy enough that it can sustain complex plots and intrigue on its own anymore. Being an old timer myself I can count the times I've seen it come into its own on the fingers of one hand and even then it didn't last long. The surface does not need the Underdark to function but it is my opinion that the opposite is not true.

[Steve]

Whistler is absolutely correct.

The Surface would be just like the UD, empty, if there were no DMs, no plots, no expansions, etc. And add to that the simple fact few players actually enjoy playing in the UD = no light environment.

Not at all to disparage those UD players, both still here and those that have left, that have invested much into the RP of it, but truly, the Underdark would be a much more valued commodity on BGTSCC if it was turned into an Epic Dungeon...for Surfaces (and maybe a more developed Upper Dark “society”).

I know I’m a broken record here, but until the UD gains TWO ACTIVE, COMMITED DMs, it will remain the fugly bastard child of evil union.

Oh yeah, before I go...TOLERANCE IS TREASON!!!

[cosmic ray]

It's strange how nobody ever complains with nearly the same degree of zeal about the PvP mongers on team good, which have neither been few in number over the years nor been used as a pretext for heavy-handed catch-all anti-rp ooc rules. Veeeeeery strange indeed.

To quote what a certain player once told me: "a key thing that I keep telling people: there are people who own this server and we are guests (NPCs) in their sandbox."

[Blackman D]

KoS as is now is more like ganking imho. I would put the obligation of emoting at least once or even better give a PvP out decided by the offender.

...which completely defeats the point of kill on sight... if you are walking around in a hostile environment then expect to die, so when it happens you are not surprised

if you dont like that then dont go there

its literally the entire point of kos

dont go or be covered up and get to the "safe zone" which in itself is bs that people can make it all the way to the city and then cant be touched, but normal pvp rules still apply there for those that are only there to press buttons so its not that big of a deal, just a little annoying there is no real "safe zone" surface side that you can walk around in the open in

[Almarea90]

Emoting to extract a sword before tagging hostile doesn't make the environment any less dangerous.

It is also worth mentioning that a surfacer can reach the safety of Sshamat without setting foot in a KoS area, or at least they could before the split. The same cannot be said for UDers

[Tanlaus]

RP XP does work cross server. My Bregan character goes to Soubar for clandestine meetings fairly regularly. I still see the message though his XP bar is maxed out.

There’s also several surfacers/surface groups interested in either working with or against drow and plenty of opportunity for it.

Had some great RP with Jalib and some of his house members which started over a PVP conflict between them and another drow.

DM Spartacus had some great events for the UD tied into the whole Balor invasion going on over the last couple of months.

Also there are now two active DMs in the UD, DM Dreamer and DM Vanquish who have been hosting both planned and impromptu events. This more than anything brings the setting alive...

Which brings me to @JustAnotherGuy, I think now that we have some UD active DMs we can finally advance that plot of yours that really should be a lot of fun.

Now I’d the time to RCR that old 30 into a nasty chimney elf and join team evil

[Snarfy]

It's strange how nobody ever complains with nearly the same degree of zeal about the PvP mongers on team good...

I would complain about this for you, and in great detail, but I'd probably get spanked.

Zeal is a really appropriate word though. I wager that if restrictions on XP/loot were somehow eased/lifted, UD and surface minglers would definitely find their fair share of zeal(otry) to go along with that loot(but not necessarily of the PvP variety, and also not necessarily free of OOC bias, or meta either).

The Surface would be just like the UD, empty, if there were no DMs, no plots, no expansions, etc. And add to that the simple fact few players actually enjoy playing in the UD = no light environment.

Not at all to disparage those UD players, both still here and those that have left, that have invested much into the RP of it, but truly, the Underdark would be a much more valued commodity on BGTSCC if it was turned into an Epic Dungeon...for Surfaces (and maybe a more developed Upper Dark “society”).

I know I’m a broken record here, but until the UD gains TWO ACTIVE, COMMITED DMs, it will remain the fugly bastard child of evil union.

... in fairness to the UD, it really is a great place to log in and just get away from bloody surfacers. It's cool, and dark, and quiet, just like my moms basement!