Wild Shape AC clarification

[Steve]

In building a Druid for Wild Shaping, how concerned should a player be about the Dodge AC bonus, in terms of each Form—or the different levels of Forms—and when considering being flat-footed or sneaked, and losing all Dodge-based AC (which means being flanked as well, right?)?

I realized that Oaken Resilience feat can help against the damage of SA if flat-footed. But essentially I'm wondering, really, how important it is, or not, to build a Wild Shaping Druid with Uncanny Dodge (from whatever source, depending).

I feel like it is hard to parse exactly how much AC is Dodge-based when in Wild Shape, since it is sometimes only listed as "AC," even though it's incorrectly just listing the Bonus AC—which is Dodge bonus—and not the Total AC, which includes...size? Is that right? And sometimes, at least on the BGTSCC, it is listed as "Natural AC," which is a real brain spinner. Cheers.

[Terankar]

This is from the original wiki. if so, dodge ac is hard to come by.

https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Sources_of_AC

[Steve]

While it might be hard to come by, it’s rather easy to lose it...if flat-footed!

Uncanny Dodge has been fixed on BGTSCC, which means a PC retains their DEX, Tumble and Dodge AC—supposedly—if flat-footed.

Getting Flanked, on the other hand, supposedly doesn’t deny the same 3 sources of AC, but SA can land (which is why Oaken Resilience is such an OP feat to have!).

[Steve]

Where are all the great minds to help answer my questions?!?

[matelener]

For the higher tier forms, it's in the range of 15 to 23 AC including DEX.

Uncanny Dodge is great but I haven't found it to be "required" when I played my pure druid. High DR, hp pool, regeneration spells all minimalized the impact of randomly being hit flat-footed.

[Steve]

Ouch. 15 to 23 seems like A LOT of AC lost on that first attack/flat-footed hit. But yeah, I guess if the PC is fully warded with DR, Regeneration and Oaken Resilience, whatever DMG that comes through on those 2-4 first attacks won't really be an issue.

However, without buffs...but I guess no one runs around in Wild Shape without buffs!

[Steve]

One can also do Cleric, acquiring EW and Uncanny Dodge. Can I hear a Gray Orc Druid?? Ahem!!

I’m just on the fence about consistent, high AC or perhaps a dip for more dmg output, while Wild Shaped. It is quite deflating to think your build is this AC Goliath, but then a sneaky little stone thrower comes and humbles you!

Furthermore, it would then seem a better building choice to hit CL 30 over acquiring Uncanny Dodge. Because even if a build has Uncanny Dodge, it means nothing compare to the AC, DR, SR, etc from spell buffs, on top of what the Shape is granting.

[Steve]

So, just for absolute clarification (if that can happen): with all Wild Shape/Shapechange/Word of Changing forms, the AC they grant is ALWAYS considered Dodge AC.

Thus, depending on the Spellbook buffs available to the PC, Uncanny Dodge has more advantage to take (say, for a Warlock, that cannot buff up as much as a Druid or an Arcane Caster can).

[Steve]

Just for record-keeping sake:

All Wild Shape / Polymorphing / Word of Changing bonus AC—that which is listed as "NATURALACBONUS" in a polymorph.2da file—is Dodge AC.

In terms one might find useful, the Dodge-based AC of a Dragon Shape Druid can drop 29 points when flat-footed or sneaked (requiring Uncanny Dodge or Imp. Uncanny Dodge to maintain). Oaken Resilience has great importance is a Wild Shape build.

Casters using Shapechange (Polymorph) or Warlocks using Word of Changing, also are affected by the loss of Bonus + DEX -based AC (all considered Dodge AC), when flat-footed or sneaked. It is assumed that Epic Spell Focus Transmutation feat, which grants +4 AC to Shapechanging/Polymorphing forms, is also Dodge AC (and thus can be lost without Uncanny Dodge or Imp.). Casters (arcane) can rely on other buffs such as Mirrors and Displacement to mitigate situation of Dodge AC loss. Warlocks have the mighty Retribuitive Invisibity invocation to rely upon.

If any of this is incorrect, please let me know (in this thread).

[Terankar]

Honestly, dragon shape needs a buff now or has to be fleshed out over more levels.

Having 25druid/5SD is the best build now.