Revert Temporary Dispel "Fix"

[EasternCheesE]

Just to clarify since i didn't even know about this server when dispel fix was implemented.
What is the fix and what was state of things you ask to return?
I hope clarifying this will allow newer players to understand and give us opportunity to come up with an idea.

Because, if dispels are nerfed with -5 DC, it simply means greater dispel will have it's safe CL of 24. All the gishes with <24 cl will suffer just the same they do now.

[matelener]

I have to say, I don't quite see the point of explaining what casters are. The matter is straightforward. Having anything around 25 or below is commonly seen as counterproductive to the comfort of play. Currently, it is much better of an idea to make a non-caster character with UMD as opposed to having a caster with CLbelow 27 or even 25.

As someone who plays from time to time a 25 CL character that cannot avoid dispels (dragon disciple gish), I disagree with that sentiment. In regular PvE play, I feel quite comfortable eating dispels - yea sure, they sting, but what compensates it is that with all the tools at my disposal, I can solo every boss/dungeon out there bearing no cost whatsoever (except the white dragon).

Majority of non-casters don't have that luxury. UMD isn't as reliable and in addition hurts the pocket.

If you are spending all your spell slots on buffing....


why are you even playing a caster and not a fighter with umd?

A mage should be using their spells to alter the battlefield and curse/debuff or displace their enemies.

not... pretend to be a worse fighter.


I played a 25 cl gish and hated it. The gameplay was that of a crappy fighter.

so i went for a 19 cl wiz 15/swas5/sd3/du7. I still had to spend all my spell slots on buffs making me ask "what do these wizard levels even do?! I am just a (p00pie) discount fighter"

So i went for 9 cl wiz 5/swash14/sd3/du7.

my gameplay didnt change. in fact i became a BETTER wizard since i could actually afford to memorize spells other than a million buffs and actually be a mage!
Is this nornal?! No. It is utterly ridiculous that only having 5 wizard levels plays more like a real wizard.


And 30 cl? buff up a summon and afk. Or shapechange into something. Very wizard gameplay. Totally not a discount fighter by proxy. discount fighter that vould just use umd instead and not be as useless

I don't know what to tell you, I'm glad you're enjoying your character?

I don't really agree that 9 CL "plays more like a wizard" than 25 CL but at least your experience is an answer to another complaint in the thread saying low CL is useless.

[Hoihe]

Just to clarify since i didn't even know about this server when dispel fix was implemented.
What is the fix and what was state of things you ask to return?
I hope clarifying this will allow newer players to understand and give us opportunity to come up with an idea.

Because, if dispels are nerfed with -5 DC, it simply means greater dispel will have it's safe CL of 24. All the gishes with <24 cl will suffer just the same they do now.

So!

In Vanilla NWN2, your caster level did NOT matter for buffs applied to you. Instead, the roll used your character level/HD to oppose the dispel roll.

Consequence of this was that a level27 fighter/level 3 wizard's Shield spell, although only lasting 3 minutes - would be just as hard to dispel as a pure 30 wizard's Shield spell. Or more egregious, someone with 3 rogue levels & UMD buffs being impossible to dispel from 25.

Sometime during this period, dispels were buffed by like +5 and made it so you had to be level 30 to enjoy immunity to dispels rather than just 25.

Then came the big update around 2016ish, where I think either Rasael, AoS or Valefort found a way to make the game correctly use the cl of the spell source. Now, you could easily dispel that level 3 wizard dip (using extreme cases).

However, the dispel being increased by +5 combined with the inordinate quantity of dispels (including every boss having a Mordenkainen's disjunction of their own) made the server... you can imagine.



Regarding safe Cl of 24 - it would make swash5/wiz5/BS10/EK10 playable. (BS is 6/10 progression, EK is 9/10, Swash is 0/5, leaving you at exactly 24 cl) As it is right now, a swb5/w5/BS10/EK10 - despite being clearly one of the intended variant builds (due to rapier being a valid choice) lacks AC, AB and damage while unbuffed, but all its buffs become useless due to being easily dispelled by practically everything.

As someone who plays from time to time a 25 CL character that cannot avoid dispels (dragon disciple gish), I disagree with that sentiment. In regular PvE play, I feel quite comfortable eating dispels - yea sure, they sting, but what compensates it is that with all the tools at my disposal, I can solo every boss/dungeon out there bearing no cost whatsoever (except the white dragon).

Majority of non-casters don't have that luxury. UMD isn't as reliable and in addition hurts the pocket.

If you are spending all your spell slots on buffing....


why are you even playing a caster and not a fighter with umd?

A mage should be using their spells to alter the battlefield and curse/debuff or displace their enemies.

not... pretend to be a worse fighter.


I played a 25 cl gish and hated it. The gameplay was that of a crappy fighter.

so i went for a 19 cl wiz 15/swas5/sd3/du7. I still had to spend all my spell slots on buffs making me ask "what do these wizard levels even do?! I am just a (p00pie) discount fighter"

So i went for 9 cl wiz 5/swash14/sd3/du7.

my gameplay didnt change. in fact i became a BETTER wizard since i could actually afford to memorize spells other than a million buffs and actually be a mage!
Is this nornal?! No. It is utterly ridiculous that only having 5 wizard levels plays more like a real wizard.


And 30 cl? buff up a summon and afk. Or shapechange into something. Very wizard gameplay. Totally not a discount fighter by proxy. discount fighter that vould just use umd instead and not be as useless

I don't know what to tell you, I'm glad you're enjoying your character?

I don't really agree that 9 CL "plays more like a wizard" than 25 CL but at least your experience is an answer to another complaint in the thread saying low CL is useless.

A character that only has 5 wizard levels has enough AB/AC sources from other classes (or maybe HiPS) to be able to avoid buffing at all. By doing so, the 3 spell levels one has access to can be filled to the brim with various saveless debuffs and knockdowns.

A character that has 25 (or in case of swash/BS/W/EK: 24) does NOT have enough AB/dmg/AC (and lacks HiPS/EW, potentially str drain on crit) to be able to go around unbuffed. To compensate for debuffs, the cl 24/25 build needs 3-4 copies of the same buff if not more to avoid becoming entirely useless both in a party and solo. This 3-4 copies, considering a wizard gets 4 spells per day (or 6/5 with 24 int) - you've already spent all your spellslots on pretending to be a fighter with only 1-2 level 5 left over to imbue your weapon (Song of Celerity) or actually play like a Bladesinger rather than a discount UMD fighter.

And on topic of "3-4 copies", many buffs fall into the same spell circle, making the 6 ( for 1-3) and 5 (for 4-9) spell slots you have basically completely filled with just pretending to be an UMD fighter.

[Kitunenotsume]

Just to clarify since i didn't even know about this server when dispel fix was implemented.
What is the fix and what was state of things you ask to return?
I hope clarifying this will allow newer players to understand and give us opportunity to come up with an idea.

Because, if dispels are nerfed with -5 DC, it simply means greater dispel will have it's safe CL of 24. All the gishes with <24 cl will suffer just the same they do now.

To my understanding, the adjustment to Dispel was to convert it from the NWN2 vanilla presentation (Dispel check vs total target HD, and their previous dispel limits) to P&P parity.

This affects primarily 4 spells: Lesser Dispel Magic, Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Disjunction.

Lesser Dispel Magic does not exist in PHB and was unchanged from Vanilla beyond the difference in the check.
Dispel Magic has a cap of +10 in PHB and Vanilla, and was adjusted to +15 here.
Greater Dispel Magic has a cap of +20 in PHB but a cap of +15 in vanilla. It was increased to +20 here.
Disjunction works slightly differently in PHB than Vanilla due to limits*, but was otherwise unchanged from PHB and Vanilla other than the difference in the check when concerning Dispelling.

Reducing the CL of standard Dispel Magic could be a viable option, but I doubt it is the main concern compared to Greater Dispel Magic.

Reducing the CL of Greater Dispel Magic to Vanilla would remove it from PNP balance. [Edit: As I have noted, this is already broken because we have CL 30]

Reducing the CL of either other spell dosen't seem to be on the table.

*: in PNP, Disjunction has an uncapped dispel against every magical effect and item in the area. Permanent magic items (including artifacts) get a will save to resist or become mundane, which in NWN2 would be fairly cruel if implemented.

[Ravial]

As someone who plays from time to time a 25 CL character that cannot avoid dispels (dragon disciple gish), I disagree with that sentiment. In regular PvE play, I feel quite comfortable eating dispels - yea sure, they sting, but what compensates it is that with all the tools at my disposal, I can solo every boss/dungeon out there bearing no cost whatsoever (except the white dragon).

The majority of non-casters don't have that luxury. UMD isn't as reliable and in addition, hurts the pocket.

That's great and all. But not everyone is you nor is able to play the way you do. I don't have the same gear as you do and I don't play that often, for example. The same goes for a good number of people I know as well. Instead of debunking it on personal experience of the however hard level of gameplay you choose for yourself and enjoy, don't judge others by the same value.

EDIT: Besides, disjunction ruins everyone the same.

[Ravial]

Reducing the CL of Greater Dispel Magic to Vanilla would remove it from PNP balance.

It's not like there's a good number of spells that are outside of PnP "Balance", you know.

The tabletop spellcasting has no balancing whatsoever, in fact. Additionally, in core D&D, monsters don't have inflated HPs and immunities to various spell effects (such as death spells) or resistances to damage per flat, either.

BGTSCC is a homebrew server with its own homebrew mechanics- some closer to the core while others are farther away. IMO, what is important is to look into what players find awesome, fun and comfortable while they play. If it means nerfing or buffing a spell- so be it. Wouldn't be the first time, either.

Although if anyone really does want PNP "balance", then we might as well remove Vampiric Feast and Song of Requiem, among some other epic feats and spells that don't exist in the core D&D

[Steve]

For those playing or wishing to play a CL 27 or lower, have you tried employing the Counterspell mechanic? If your PC is subject to getting Greater Dispelled, AND you memorize a Greater Dispel—or 2 or 3!!!—and then face an enemy that is likely or know to cast such, a Counterspell should negate getting dispelled.

Okay, this would only work X number of times based on memorize Gr. Dispels, and not every low CL build can or is going to bulk up on Gr. Dispels, but, it IS one way, along with a few other ways, that a low CL build/PC can mitigate the Greater Dispel problem.

[Halian]

Isn't counter spell broken?

[Rhifox]

For those playing or wishing to play a CL 27 or lower, have you tried employing the Counterspell mechanic? If your PC is subject to getting Greater Dispelled, AND you memorize a Greater Dispel—or 2 or 3!!!—and then face an enemy that is likely or know to cast such, a Counterspell should negate getting dispelled.

Not possible for me since I have Abjuration prohibited, but I've heard of other casters doing this to some effect. Counterspell is kind of clunky and hard to use, especially if you don't have the full feat tree, but it is an option. I'd say Silence wands cast on the floor is probably more reliable though.

... Something I would like to see, though, would be Darkness reverted back to providing full concealment if you don't have a spell that can see through magical darkness (and also Fog Cloud added for divine casters). That'd give a fun defensive option against dispels for low CL casters.

[cosmic ray]

The dispelling spam on this server is beyond absurd. Just the other day, I was hit by five dispels in a row cast by the same group of monsters. That's just one example. It's a dispel fiesta almost everywhere and that is pretty awful game design, and a lazy way to increase difficulty.

[Kitunenotsume]

@Ravial, I have attempted to clarify my intent with your quoted statement.
When I refer to balance, I do refer to my post on the previous page regarding Greater Dispel Magic and the CL cap of 20.
I agree that the spell system has no consistant metric, but the spell itself and PHB generally assumes level 20 cap for players. Epic levels quickly skew matters (which is a pertinent factor here).

[EasternCheesE]

Isn't counter spell broken?

As of counterspelling, QC team tested it recently and we haven't yet documented it's mechanics.
I will give the most noticeable things:
1) In order to counterspell to work, one has to actually target their counterspell target and use counterspell feat
2) Then, if they didn't invest into counterspelling line of feats, they can't do anything aside of movement in order to actually counterspell things
3) Currently, counterspelling with exact same spell is broken. It doesn't work except for epic spells when it works right.
4) Dispel magic is also broken producing 0 + 0 rolls.
6) Lesser dispel, greater dispel and disjunction work perfectly up to their DCs. In our QC fight, i had 3 greater dispels and 3 mords and my opponent couldn't do anything
7) Duelward, is actually, underestimated spell. It allows to skip point 1 for single counterspelling attempt. Which means, if you go to Yuan-ti, you don't need to worry for that this snake suddenly pops up and dispels you before you could press that "CS" button, instead, you will counterspell it automatically as long as you are not casting/fighting at that exact round. In our view (people who tested CS recently), it could use some tuning to provide more counterspells and epic counterspell feat for it's duration because people already use their lvl 5 spellslot for 6 sec/level spell together with their spellslots for greater dispels and mords.

One main thing that would be a huge QoL is adding mechanics to actually choose which exact spells our PCs will counterspell (if they can identify those). Or, maybe, make counterspell togglable where you decide if your PC counterspells everything they try to cast or you have to click "counterspell THIS" manually while enemy starts casting spell.

The thing that is totally broken is that warlocks can't counterspell. They produce 0 + 0 with all their invocations, same as Dispel magic. So, two broken things, in fact. Oh, three, since counterspelling with exactly same or opposite spell doesn't work too.
But, even with these limitation, counterspelling can prove very useful in numerous scenarios.

[matelener]

As someone who plays from time to time a 25 CL character that cannot avoid dispels (dragon disciple gish), I disagree with that sentiment. In regular PvE play, I feel quite comfortable eating dispels - yea sure, they sting, but what compensates it is that with all the tools at my disposal, I can solo every boss/dungeon out there bearing no cost whatsoever (except the white dragon).

The majority of non-casters don't have that luxury. UMD isn't as reliable and in addition, hurts the pocket.

That's great and all. But not everyone is you nor is able to play the way you do. I don't have the same gear as you do and I don't play that often, for example. The same goes for a good number of people I know as well. Instead of debunking it on personal experience of the however hard level of gameplay you choose for yourself and enjoy, don't judge others by the same value.

EDIT: Besides, disjunction ruins everyone the same.

That character doesn't have much gear. For example, the weapon I commonly use is a Greatsword with +2 EB and +2 piercing damage. The armor is a +4 half-plate. I've got +4 AC pieces but if they were downgraded to +3 AC, I'd be fine as well. All of that gear can be bought at stores and it's a strength of a gish to be quite gear independant, a lot more than mentioned "fighters with UMD".

Which brings me to the point: if gishes of 25 CL have it so hard (by your standard) than there are dozens of other character classes/concepts who have it even harder. And with your suggestion in place, it may come off as helping the wrong "crowd" as there is a plethora of powerbuilds within that range of Caster Level.

The dispelling spam on this server is beyond absurd. Just the other day, I was hit by five dispels in a row cast by the same group of monsters. That's just one example. It's a dispel fiesta almost everywhere and that is pretty awful game design, and a lazy way to increase difficulty.

Would you mind sharing some details where were you dispelled so much? Also, almost everywhere seems like a massive exaggeration.

[cosmic ray]

It was in Oghrann ruins, which is a permanent dispel festival. The Duergar compound is the same thing and half the drider area too. Every boss has 1-2 mords for you, even if it makes no sense for the monster type, and some have up to 3-4. Let's not even mention the Netherese Maze and the Lava Caverns.

[EasternCheesE]

It was in Oghrann ruins, which is a permanent dispel festival. The Duergar compound is the same thing and half the drider area too. Every boss has 1-2 mords for you, even if it makes no sense for the monster type, and some have up to 3-4. Let's not even mention the Netherese Maze and the Lava Caverns.

It surely is. Occultists and soothsayers. But, from my experience, it's quite easy to counter since they have lowish concentration score. Without hips and high CL, you can drop silence wand under their feet or make sure you can deal 50 dmg on the round they try cast dispel to break their concentration.
I myself use hips on occultists, but i don't have disable abilities and i can't kill them in one round due to lowish burst damage. Feint allows me to break their concentration super reliably (when they cast devour magic on second round, my hips is still on cooldown). Works same for soothsayers. Only time i get dispelled is when i don't spot them or they spawn behind me.

Thus, your possible solutions are:
1) Silence wand
2) Invisibility potion to get close (doesn't work on soothsayers though)
3) Reliable source of damage + way to transport yourself to enemy before they dispel you
4) Summon scrolls as bait
5) Traps
6) Hips
7) Counterspelling