Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2021)

[Theodore01]

Really? Where is the balance in that?

It needs the same cap as a phantom gets!

AC Bonus
A phantom is highly trained at dodging blows, and she has a sixth sense that lets her avoid even unanticipated attacks. When unarmored and unencumbered, a phantom adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her Armor Class. This ability does not stack with the monk's AC bonus ability. In addition, a phantom gains a +1 bonus (Dodge) to AC every ten levels.

Note: The phantom AC is capped by Phantom levels so that it only kicks in if you have more than 20 wisdom so that the low level Phantoms aren't impacted.

[Deathgrowl]

Really? Where is the balance in that?

It needs the same cap as a phantom gets!

That would invalidate a lot of current builds with no real alternative.

Disclosure, though: I play a monk4/cleric11/harper priest5/hierophant10 with a buffed wisdom of 34. I'd lose a ton of AC on such a change on a build that isn't really all that fantastic to start with. He doesn't have the strength to wear full plate and a shield.

But moreover, it will further diminish the usefulness of sacred fist, as the monk3/sf10/cleric17 (and its variants) will no longer work the same way.

Having access to monk AC on a druid outside of forms isn't that problematic to me. You can already do that with spirit shaman.

[Theodore01]

Agreed that's a good point.

But the change also gives a huge AC gain to the already godlike druids.....

[Terankar]

Really? Where is the balance in that?

It needs the same cap as a phantom gets!

That would invalidate a lot of current builds with no real alternative.

Disclosure, though: I play a monk4/cleric11/harper priest5/hierophant10 with a buffed wisdom of 34. I'd lose a ton of AC on such a change on a build that isn't really all that fantastic to start with. He doesn't have the strength to wear full plate and a shield.

But moreover, it will further diminish the usefulness of sacred fist, as the monk3/sf10/cleric17 (and its variants) will no longer work the same way.

Having access to monk AC on a druid outside of forms isn't that problematic to me. You can already do that with spirit shaman.

Sacred Fist will remain the same, since it is better with spirit shaman overall. In general, I would say both favoured soul and spirit shaman make for better sacred fists.

So the only real winner here is the caster druid that suddenly got what, 3-5 more AC?

[Rhifox]

But the change also gives a huge AC gain to the already godlike druids.....

Monk AC does not work in Wildshape.

[Theodore01]

So the only real winner here is the caster druid that suddenly got what, 3-5 more AC?

a Caster druid gains +-10AC, as they easily get Wisdom to 38 or more.
A caster shaman needs Cha to be effective, so you cannot really compare them.

[Terankar]

The Rogue ability Hide in the Shadows will progress faster in the next patch. The new progression will use the following formula:

7-10: 2 seconds
11-13: 1 second
14-16: 0.5 seconds
17+: Instant

This change will be automatic and won't require RCRing.

Does it then work as HIPS at 17? Or are the requirements the same?

[Rhifox]

Does it then work as HIPS at 17? Or are the requirements the same?

The other requirements are the same. It's no different from how it works now except that it becomes instant at 17 instead of 21.

[Hoihe]

Agreed that's a good point.

But the change also gives a huge AC gain to the already godlike druids.....

Druids aren't that godlike outside of wildshape though.

It's wildshape/dragonshape that makes them basically immortal.

I used to play a caster druid who used zen archery, and while she had some very good DCs - being a Vancian caster on a server where dungeons respawn while PCs are inside, and do so in singles or twos rather than in groups, left her quite weak. And a bow alone without high BAB and fighter feats/AA EB didn't really scratch anything.

[Terankar]

So the only real winner here is the caster druid that suddenly got what, 3-5 more AC?

a Caster druid gains +-10AC, as they easily get Wisdom to 38 or more.
A caster shaman needs Cha to be effective, so you cannot really compare them.

Compared to a full plate druid with a tower shield, it doesn't gain that much AC. True if you built towards no armor at all.

[Uranus]

Theorycrafting a shuriken-natures-ninja monk/druid/Stormlord/Hierophant or Cavestalker
It will have
- 55-57AC
- DR
- Access to heals and regenerate
- Damage: +4 +1d4 + 3d8 + 3 and manyshot + flurry of blows
- High DCs 30+ + spell level

[cosmic ray]

DCs are complete garbage on BGtSCC because of the unreasonably high saves that monsters have (I know this from personal experience playing two optimised DC wizards here).

Anyway, on the subject of druids being godlike, that's completely false and I know this as a long-time druid player. Before the recent changes to dragon shape, a druid could tank very well and was probably the best tank on the server, but good friggin' luck killing any worthwhile bosses (balor, etc) on your own. It was 100% impossible with 30ish AB and 30 damage per hit with no way to bypass resistances. People see something that blows their mind and extrapolate without limits.

After the changes, my druid's AC took a hit of like 6 or 7, so it's now only like 52 or 53. AB is still rubbish, so forget about hitting more than once or twice per round, but damage has been improved a little, which is nice, because taking thirty minutes to kill the Frost Giant King is such great fun that often I just log out afterwards out of sheer boredom.

Now, someone could say "but cosmic ray, a spellcaster like the druid should not also be the best tank on the server. Surely that's being godlike lol!!!"

No, it isn't. Everyone knows that the druid's spellbook is a bit rubbish for a spellcaster. It lacks all the good melee buffs of the cleric and all the good damage spam of the wizard. That level 7 insect plague spell is laughably weak, since all it takes is like 2 DR or something to fully nullify it, and most epic monsters have more than that. Also, any class that is based on shapeshifting needs to be stronger than normal because you can't access your inventory or even your clicky abilities (nice job, Bugsidian!) while outside of your natural shape. All you have is your spells and the beefiness of your new form. Do the people on the nerf train who never played a druid but get mindblown whenever one tanks the balor without being killed within one minute now understand what it is like to play one? Here's the succinct answer: it shines as a tank and is rubbish or passable at everything else, plus it's extremely tedious to play.


op op nerf nau

Edited to specify new AC value.

[matelener]

DCs are complete garbage on BGtSCC because of the unreasonably high saves that monsters have (I know this from personal experience playing two optimised DC wizards here).

Anyway, on the subject of druids being godlike, that's completely false and I know this as a long-time druid player. Before the recent changes to dragon shape, a druid could tank very well and was probably the best tank on the server, but good friggin' luck killing any worthwhile bosses (balor, etc) on your own. It was 100% impossible with 30ish AB and 30 damage per hit with no way to bypass resistances. People see something that blows their mind and extrapolate without limits.

After the changes, my druid's AC took a hit of like 6 or 7, so it's now only 50 something. AB is still rubbish, so forget about hitting more than once or twice per round, but damage has been improved a little, which is nice, because taking thirty minutes to kill the Frost Giant King is such great fun that often I just log out afterwards out of sheer boredom.

Now, someone could say "but cosmic ray, a spellcaster like the druid should not also be the best tank on the server. Surely that's being godlike lol!!!"

No, it isn't. Everyone knows that the druid's spellbook is a bit rubbish for a spellcaster. It lacks all the good melee buffs of the cleric and all the good damage spam of the wizard. That level 7 insect plague spell is laughably weak, since all it takes is like 2 DR or something to fully nullify it, and most epic monsters have more than that. Also, any class that is based on shapeshifting needs to be stronger than normal because you can't access your inventory or even your clicky abilities (nice job, Bugsidian!) while outside of your natural shape. All you have is your spells and the beefiness of your new form. Do the people on the nerf train who never played a druid but get mindblown whenever one tanks the balor without being killed within one minute now understand what it is like to play one? Here's the succinct answer: it shines as a tank and is rubbish or passable at everything else, plus it's extremely tedious to play.


op op nerf nau

Well, couple of points, from myself - also a long time druid player.

1) Druids are capable of killing Balor. Much quicker with any melee dip (fighter stuff or expose weakness) but doable as pure too. My strategy as a pure one was to simply let loose my draconic pet which on Nature's Avatar has something like +50 AB, multiattack and is hasted. Meanwhile I could go AFK for 10 minutes because there was literally no chance Balor would ever hurt me. And these were the days when Silver Fang was not a thing, neither Northlander Hewing cheese.

2) Druid's spellbook isn't that bad. For example, you can spam drown (mass/regular) at Frost Giant King and kill him within couple of rounds. There are plenty of strong controlling spells like Storm of Vegneace or Stonehold or Sunburst that can have insane DCs. They aren't as handy against bosses but in any mass-mob situation, they're amazing.

3) Huge weakness of a druid is the lack of access to UMD, we're fully agreed here. But they are strong enough that in most cases they don't need it. What's great about druids is that they perform so well without having good gear or consumables.

4) The recent changes, and my previous feats: Legendary Animal / Epic Elemental, were aimed at adding more fun, depth, theme and multi-classing variety to druids. You had to make major power concessions before their introduction, if you wanted to roleplay an "animalistic" druid or an elemental one. Now, you're definetely good to go. Even in case of dragon shape, I just shaved off excessive defenses to combat the tediousness / boredom in the gameplay.

5) If you're a pure druid, you should have lost just 5 AC (but you still can go over 60 AC with ICE!). The AB before the change was not in 30s but 40 without any feats, now it's 41. And you can definetely pick up couple of points more, if you want to specialize in melee combat: weapon focus / epic prowess / high bab dip / unarmed mastery from fighter dip. 26 druid / 4 fighter is 46 AB IIRC.

[cosmic ray]

If the druid's dragon pet, which I, having focused on spellcasting in dragon shape (and still all the fire giants save against my stuff), have never had, can indeed solo the balor, and if that somehow is improper, why are people crying about Owl's Wisdom and Tortoise Shell as a side effect of crying about the elixirs? If those elixirs had never been made available for monk et al, and I'm not necessarily saying they should not have been made the way they were, people wouldn't be looking for the witch's neighbours to burn along with the witch herself.

[YYA]

Theorycrafting a shuriken-natures-ninja monk/druid/Stormlord/Hierophant or Cavestalker
It will have
- 55-57AC
- DR
- Access to heals and regenerate
- Damage: +4 +1d4 + 3d8 + 3 and manyshot + flurry of blows
- High DCs 30+ + spell level

And then you run out of your stack of 50 darts, erm shuriken, and off you go trying to punch things with your fists. It has been years, but the server did have some mundane stacks of 99 throwing weapons, which when bought in bulk would overflow in your inventory and combine into one stack with hundreds if not thousands of things to throw.

Anyhow, you might actually have be better of with something like: Monk 16/Cleric 5/Stormlord 9 and by going for Blazing Aura (Monk 13 required). Use your spells for minor AB or Damage boosts, or heals. But anyhow, it is just theorycrafting since Talos, deity requirement for Stormlord, is chaotic Evil. Unless this server allows something truly silly things like Lawful Neutral Talos Worshipping druids.