Sorcerer build decision

[Deathgrowl]

One thing is for certain though, mechanically there is no reason to make a wizard, other than a pvp based hips wizard. With Shadow adept one can get a hips wizard with very good DCs as well - https://nwn2db.com/build/?326250

Have you built this in-game? Shadow Adept on the wiki doesn't say it gets Move Silently, so this might not be a legit build? Or is the wiki wrong?

EDIT:
Ooooh, nevermind. I misremembered shadowdancer needing 10 Move Silently.

[Lockonnow]

well this sorcerer is to fit i'll be you have a lots of fortude that mean you will be hard to do anything about in pvp

[mrm3ntalist]

One thing is for certain though, mechanically there is no reason to make a wizard, other than a pvp based hips wizard. With Shadow adept one can get a hips wizard with very good DCs as well - https://nwn2db.com/build/?326250

Have you built this in-game? Shadow Adept on the wiki doesn't say it gets Move Silently, so this might not be a legit build? Or is the wiki wrong?

EDIT:
Ooooh, nevermind. I misremembered shadowdancer needing 10 Move Silently.

Unless something changed in the past couple of years, it should be legit - all the builds are made and leveled up. For pvp its an amazing build and SA makes it very good in PVE. If i remember correctly I skipped CE for Epic Greater ruin for PvP

Now that Shadow Adept is open, I think I will skip AM for SA and go full Necro with 34 + spell level on DCs. Thats a 38DC on Wrack . The blasting will be a bit limited since there will be no Mastery of elements but blasting is at a very sorry state in BG so no big deal. Just need to rearrange the spell list and try to fit Control undead or at least undeath to death, otherwise the Vault will need a heavy use of spells to solo

[The_Sorting_Hat]

Ah, okay, a broken item. I was wonderng what the hell I was doing wrong.

Well, if you got it, flaunt it I always say, and all the power to you!

[TheKai]

Brilliant, m3nt, as usual. Hope alls been well, bud.

[mrm3ntalist]

Ah, okay, a broken item. I was wonderng what the hell I was doing wrong.

Well, if you got it, flaunt it I always say, and all the power to you!

Even without this item you can get to 50AC and also have a Higher DCs, metamagic feats or a combination of both. If you build a sorcerer with mechanics in mind, without RP sacrifices and you cant solo most of the areas, then something is not right with the build

Brilliant, m3nt, as usual. Hope alls been well, bud.

Good to see you too Kai. All is good with me, living in your county atm. I hope you are doing good as well

[YYA]

One thing is for certain though, mechanically there is no reason to make a wizard, other than a pvp based hips wizard. With Shadow adept one can get a hips wizard with very good DCs as well - https://nwn2db.com/build/?326250

Have you built this in-game? Shadow Adept on the wiki doesn't say it gets Move Silently, so this might not be a legit build? Or is the wiki wrong?

EDIT:
Ooooh, nevermind. I misremembered shadowdancer needing 10 Move Silently.

Unless something changed in the past couple of years, it should be legit - all the builds are made and leveled up. For pvp its an amazing build and SA makes it very good in PVE. If i remember correctly I skipped CE for Epic Greater ruin for PvP

Now that Shadow Adept is open, I think I will skip AM for SA and go full Necro with 34 + spell level on DCs. Thats a 38DC on Wrack . The blasting will be a bit limited since there will be no Mastery of elements but blasting is at a very sorry state in BG so no big deal. Just need to rearrange the spell list and try to fit Control undead or at least undeath to death, otherwise the Vault will need a heavy use of spells to solo

Did they add +5 Dexterity items to the server during the past couple of years? If not, you will have to cut off one point of dexterity AC.

Anyhow, it will cost one point of spell DCs and some spell slots, but if you go Human for the extra feat bonus you can get Combat Expertise at level 1, and then either Improved Combat Expertise or that Epic Ruin later in the epics. One point of spell DCs for +2 or +5 AC. Also, you could probably get away pushing your Wizard levels 6 and 7 to character levels 29 and 30. All your spellcasting classes offer that '2 + Intelligence Modifier' as skill points, so you could just swap between Shadow Adept and Blood Magus and unlock their class abilities a little bit sooner. It is not an issue if you are RCR-ing a level 30 character already, but for anyone else it could actually help out with their leveling up experience. Other than those nitpicks, seems okayish.

As for the other two builds mentioned earlier...
https://nwn2db.com/build/?326248 <= Same as above, if you go human you can get that extra feat bonus, which allows you to get your armor proficiencies faster, at the cost of point of DC and some spell slots, which would open up an epic feat to be spent on something else, such as another Epic Spell -- such as Dragon Knight simply because you are playing a Dragon Disciple.

https://nwn2db.com/build/?272885 <= It is missing comments, but anyhow. Why have have left Dragon Disciple 10 as your 30th level, when you could have taken it at level 29 instead of the Archmage 9? Why wait a level when you could get the +2 Charisma sooner? And again, if you go for human it costs that +1 DC but you could get you Able Learner at level one, which would let you get more roleplay value out of your skills, or in this case, +3 AC from Combat Expertise.

[mrm3ntalist]

Did they add +5 Dexterity items to the server during the past couple of years? If not, you will have to cut off one point of dexterity AC.

Anyhow, it will cost one point of spell DCs and some spell slots, but if you go Human for the extra feat bonus you can get Combat Expertise at level 1, and then either Improved Combat Expertise or that Epic Ruin later in the epics. One point of spell DCs for +2 or +5 AC. Also, you could probably get away pushing your Wizard levels 6 and 7 to character levels 29 and 30. All your spellcasting classes offer that '2 + Intelligence Modifier' as skill points, so you could just swap between Shadow Adept and Blood Magus and unlock their class abilities a little bit sooner. It is not an issue if you are RCR-ing a level 30 character already, but for anyone else it could actually help out with their leveling up experience. Other than those nitpicks, seems okayish.

Going human does not save 1 feat. It loses 1 in addition to some extra DEX. Instead I could take 2 less Great INTs ( since Tieflings get +2INT compared to Humans ) and get exactly what you describe with much less cost. Try to build it as a human. It is not the same

As for the other two builds mentioned earlier...
https://nwn2db.com/build/?326248 <= Same as above, if you go human you can get that extra feat bonus, which allows you to get your armor proficiencies faster, at the cost of point of DC and some spell slots, which would open up an epic feat to be spent on something else, such as another Epic Spell -- such as Dragon Knight simply because you are playing a Dragon Disciple.

Same as above about the human part. There was no option to go for Wizard 10 since I wanted all levels of Blood Magus and Shadow Adept (Infusion, bloodwalk, shadow walk etc )

https://nwn2db.com/build/?272885 <= It is missing comments, but anyhow. Why have have left Dragon Disciple 10 as your 30th level, when you could have taken it at level 29 instead of the Archmage 9? Why wait a level when you could get the +2 Charisma sooner? And again, if you go for human it costs that +1 DC but you could get you Able Learner at level one, which would let you get more roleplay value out of your skills, or in this case, +3 AC from Combat Expertise.

Again about the human. Have you tried building the same thing as a human? It doesnt work. I dont build for easier levelling up but for max efficiency. In this case DD10 at 30 maxes spot without wasting a skill point

[YYA]

Going human does not save 1 feat. It loses 1 in addition to some extra DEX. Instead I could take 2 less Great INTs ( since Tieflings get +2INT compared to Humans ) and get exactly what you describe with much less cost. Try to build it as a human. It is not the same

Have you tried building the same thing as a human? It doesnt work.

Oh yeah, I forgot about this server's Shadowdancer requirement, about the 19 dexterity. Instead of 28 Intelligence you can only reach about 27 and that is at the cost of base 8 constitution instead of 11.

There was no option to go for Wizard 10 since I wanted all levels of Blood Magus and Shadow Adept (Infusion, bloodwalk, shadow walk etc )

You might have quoted a wrong part to reply as the build I linked doesn't have those classes, it has Sorcerer, Dragon Disciple, etc. But once again, going human would allow you to have that one extra feat at level one, which would allow you to shuffle your feat progression down and thus free an epic feat to be used for something else, even for an Epic Spell Focus Necromancy if you care not for another Epic spell. There are choices to be made here.

As I believe your reply was about the first build I commented, about the build that only gets Wizard 7, due to you going for Blood Magus and Shadow Adept in addition to Shadowdancer, yeah, you cannot get Wizard 10 and that is obvious. All I was saying is that you probably could shift the Wizard levels to be taken at a later point in the build in order to get those class abilities you mentioned earlier. It probably doesn't matter if you are just RCR-ing level 30 characters into other characters, but for anyone who isn't, they might find it a little bit more efficient as those levels seem to be merely pass over levels.

I dont build for easier levelling up but for max efficiency.

I would say that is highly debatable based on our definitions, or concepts, of it.

In this case DD10 at 30 maxes spot without wasting a skill point

That is a good point, will give you that. But, as a human and with Able Learner, not really such an issue. It will cost that one point of Spell DCs though, so choices and choices.

---

And yes, again with a human, and the primary reason for it all is my dislike of the long horse faces Aasimars, and how Tieflings look perpetually horny. A cringy joke, take it or leave it. And anyhow, even if it costs something like 30 hitpoints, you could probably switch the race to Drow and be better off with that natural Spell Resistance progression. Choices, choices.

---

As for the original question, expanded on the three builds. I would actually say neither. I would probably just go for a human, Wizard 10/Red Wizard 10/Shadow Adept 7/Shadowdancer 3. These days you can choose your second school, so it is not such a terrible loss even if you have to take Red Wizard at level 6. Start with 18 in Dexterity and Intelligence, everything else at 8, end up with 19 Dexterity and 30 Intelligence by taking Red Wizard 5, 10, and wizard 10 during epics, with two Epic Spells. Same metamagic feats.

Caster level used for Necromancy DC boost:
30 (Base progression with +3 from Practised Spellcaster)
+ 5 (Red Wizard Necromancy)
+ 2 (Spell Power from Shadow Adept)
= 37, so a DC bonus of: +5

Necromancy Spell DCs:
10 (Base)
+ 12 (Buffed up Intelligence of 34)
+ 1 (Enhanced Specialization)
+ 5 (Caster level DC bonus)
+ 2 (Shadow Weave User)
+ 1 (Spell Casting Prodigy)
= 31 + (Spell level)

So I believe that would be a DC 35 Wrack, or DC36, if you change two Great Intelligence feats into Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Necromancy. Choice to be made, do you want the extra spell slots or that one point of DC?

Oh, and as for overcoming Spell Resistance on targets:
30 (Base progression with +3 from Practised Spellcaster)
+ 5 (Red Wizard Necromancy)
+ 2 (Spell Power from Shadow Adept)
+ 4 (Shadow Weave User)
+ 4 (Greater Spell Penetration)
= 45 + 1d20, against the... let us see... 41 of a level 30 Drow...

You will lack the Blood Magus Scars and you have less hit points, but at least you can wear the stylized Red Robes as part of the more civilized society. I know that most people do not care or even notice the use of Blood Magic, but eh, doesn't mean you cannot have some level of standards.

[YYA]

Oh, and a random thought. If I went for Wizard 7/Shadow Adept 10/Redwizard 10/Shadowancer 3, it would cost one Wizard Bonus Feat, but in turn I would get the final Shadow Adept Spell Power, and if I spent one the Epic Feats on Spell Focus Necromancy... I could have that DC 36 Wrack. You know, choices.

[mrm3ntalist]

I dont build for easier levelling up but for max efficiency.

I would say that is highly debatable based on our definitions, or concepts, of it.

I am not trying to define it. That is how I build.

For the rest you are correct. The thing is that I dont like wizards. Especially now that they added an extra spell known for sorcerers, they always have better spell availability than wizards.

[darwin.evenwood]

hi, the build are very cool, i am tempted to steal them. Anyway i have a question: in the blood magus/dd/archm build you choose "dash" as a feat. Is that a standing for something else or do you think would be valuable for a sorc to get that little boost to movement? maybe for positioning, i don't know.

EDIT: i've seen there isn't the second spell focus for archmage, so probably it's a stand for that.

[Charraj]

Now that Shadow Adept is open, I think I will skip AM for SA and go full Necro with 34 + spell level on DCs. Thats a 38DC on Wrack . The blasting will be a bit limited since there will be no Mastery of elements but blasting is at a very sorry state in BG so no big deal. Just need to rearrange the spell list and try to fit Control undead or at least undeath to death, otherwise the Vault will need a heavy use of spells to solo

I actually made a variation of this build a little while ago; it's in-game and fully leveled up. I opted for lower DCs (DC 41 Wail), and went with ASoC 10 for the metamagic options and versatility. Not sure it was worth it, but it works fine in PvE.

I imagine the ability to Quicken certain spells is good for PvP, but I am so terrible at PvP (almost never PvPing will do that to you) that I'm not sure I'd execute it properly. I dunno, Quickened breach followed by Wail is a thing, right? Do people still Quicken Bigby 6?

[Rhifox]

Do people still Quicken Bigby 6?

If you know the person you're using it on would be vulnerable to it.

[mrm3ntalist]

Now that Shadow Adept is open, I think I will skip AM for SA and go full Necro with 34 + spell level on DCs. Thats a 38DC on Wrack . The blasting will be a bit limited since there will be no Mastery of elements but blasting is at a very sorry state in BG so no big deal. Just need to rearrange the spell list and try to fit Control undead or at least undeath to death, otherwise the Vault will need a heavy use of spells to solo

I actually made a variation of this build a little while ago; it's in-game and fully leveled up. I opted for lower DCs (DC 41 Wail), and went with ASoC 10 for the metamagic options and versatility. Not sure it was worth it, but it works fine in PvE.

I imagine the ability to Quicken certain spells is good for PvP, but I am so terrible at PvP (almost never PvPing will do that to you) that I'm not sure I'd execute it properly. I dunno, Quickened breach followed by Wail is a thing, right? Do people still Quicken Bigby 6?

ITs correct what you say that with such high DCs there is a lot of versatility. However, ASOC is not worth it at all on BG. ASOC is a PRC that maximizes the use of blasting spells which simply put, do not work on BG on epic levels. The only blasting spells that kind of worth it are AoEs but mostly spells like Wall of fire that can do damage over time. It is better to use controlling spells such as mass blindness, domination-or-control undead, sunburst etc and use DC spells to clear up. Therefor there are better PRC options than ASOC. I think archmage would be a better option unless you already have it.

Bigby 6 can still be useful but nowhere near what it was in the past. Bigby 5 is most useful for me ATM since it can shutdown melee bosses like the Barbarian Chieftain in the Balor area.