Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2021)

[YYA]

Does natural spell actually work for the shifter forms?

The fact it isn't wildshape and natural spell only allows for casting in those specific forms, will that enable casting for the shifter forms?

I apologize if I missed it but what about natural spell in forms?

It will work but I think you can pick Natural Spell only on a druid level

[DaloLorn]

All this talk about Natural Spell makes me wish the PrC counted as a prerequisite for the feat... you know, for the non-druidic shifters among us.

[Rhifox]

Some updates.

Google Sheets document is just about finalized. Several domains have had some new feats or skills added, and in the case of the Pleasure and Wrath domains, had their spell lists redone to better fit their original source material (I originally built them as Dragon magazine Lust and Wrath domains. They now use Book of Exalted Deeds Pleasure- and Wrath-inspired spell lists).

Deity-Domains list is closer to complete. Several domains gods currently have now were re-added where it can be justified by the themes of the god. All 3-domain gods have been given an appropriate 4th domain. Some gods still lose domains, but in cases where that prevents accessing certain prc or feat requirements a replacement has been added (for example, alignment domains are given according to the alignment of the god, so Law simply does not work for Grumbar. He was given Endurance as a replacement instead, which has been given the Iron Will feat from Law).

If you have a broken build as a result of the changes please let me know here and I will try to accommodate it. I am not particularly inclined to adding work-arounds for missing domains that give particularly powerful feats but that aren't a prerequisite for any other prc or feat (like Uncanny Dodge from Air or Luck of Heroes from Luck), but if there's enough of an outcry I can look into it.

Archfiends won't be valid options for clerics. The Demonic and Diabolic domains will still be available however through Lolth and Gargauth respectively, and the archfiend deities will still be available for non-clerics. I may look into adding the Disciple and Thrall feats from pnp to represent characters of non-cleric classes taking a more devotional aspect to fiends, but that will need some discussion with other staff.

Finally, every domain has been given a detailed description of the general theological tenants of that domain. As domains are shared between multiple different gods of multiple different beliefs and alignments, these descriptions are written in archetypical form and do not describe the specific beliefs of any particular deity but rather common symbolic elements associated with particular types of deities (with the exception of domains limited to just one deity, like Talona's Blightbringer and Umberlee's Watery Death). Hopefully this will help people play more fully fleshed out religious characters.

Some examples:

[matelener]

All this talk about Natural Spell makes me wish the PrC counted as a prerequisite for the feat... you know, for the non-druidic shifters among us.

Makes sense to enable it, but it will still require the wisdom.

I will also take some time to playtest Shifter a bit more and see about adjusting couple of stats.

[Terankar]

It has too much going on for it.

Normally, when I see a shifter, it allows for a unique playstyle and it can do everything well. It synergizes with itself, but is not a master of a certain role.

It does have some weaknesses right now, but those are similar to a say 30 barbarian. Will save, spells etc. But it has built in defenses in its own class already, by changing shapes.

So right now, I think full BaB is the biggest issue, because you can basically be a better front line tank, than nearly any build. It rivals that of a dwarven defender and is better, as the abilities it receives for the "tanking" shapes.

It looks overturned, but I think that if you release it and let it run alongside the cleric list of domains for testing, you will get plenty of feedback from all types of players on the server.

Biggest thing for me is that the levelling of the shifter seems very good. A brand new character would get a good experience from it and also, from a roleplay side of things, there will very likely be some fleshing out too

[Kalgain]

I agree, if you compare it to a paladin or ranger without umd shifter seems to come out ahead. If you compare it to powerbuilds shifter loses out.

The biggest problem I have when trying to power build a shifter for end game content is not the lack of weapon materials to pierce immunities or limited build diversity, but the lack of umd usage. Since you don't have a quick slot bar, you need to revert back in a fight to use your wands and scrolls, which leaves you vulnerable.

[joleda]

Why not limit the caster requirement to be able to cast level 1 spells? Sorcerer, Wizard, Spirit Shaman, and Druid don't receive the ability to cast level 3 spells at the same class level. Druid has a mechanical advantage over the other three since it can take Natural Spell. The 3-by-20 rule will require 3 levels of Sorcerer, Wizard, Spirit Shaman, or Druid by level 20 anyhow. Arcane Archer sets this level 1 precedence.

[Kalgain]

Why not limit the caster requirement to be able to cast level 1 spells? Sorcerer, Wizard, Spirit Shaman, and Druid don't receive the ability to cast level 3 spells at the same class level. Druid has a mechanical advantage over the other three since it can take Natural Spell. The 3-by-20 rule will require 3 levels of Sorcerer, Wizard, Spirit Shaman, or Druid by level 20 anyhow. Arcane Archer sets this level 1 precedence.

While I would like that if I were a shifter, it would make some builds much stronger since then you could use 2 other classes to strengthen the shifter. The best that comes to my mind is 3 druid,3rogue,4fighter, 20 shifter. That allows you get unarmed weapon mastery and higher bab.

[Terankar]

The requirements are good. You are not supposed to have it all in one character.

Tbh, the shifter is very friendly to new players on a mechanical level, but super hard to roleplay

[joleda]

Why not limit the caster requirement to be able to cast level 1 spells? Sorcerer, Wizard, Spirit Shaman, and Druid don't receive the ability to cast level 3 spells at the same class level. Druid has a mechanical advantage over the other three since it can take Natural Spell. The 3-by-20 rule will require 3 levels of Sorcerer, Wizard, Spirit Shaman, or Druid by level 20 anyhow. Arcane Archer sets this level 1 precedence.

While I would like that if I were a shifter, it would make some builds much stronger since then you could use 2 other classes to strengthen the shifter. The best that comes to my mind is 3 druid,3rogue,4fighter, 20 shifter. That allows you get unarmed weapon mastery and higher bab.

I get the balancing part of the decision. I just argue that the requirements are not consistent with other prestige classes.

[EasternCheesE]

Why not limit the caster requirement to be able to cast level 1 spells? Sorcerer, Wizard, Spirit Shaman, and Druid don't receive the ability to cast level 3 spells at the same class level. Druid has a mechanical advantage over the other three since it can take Natural Spell. The 3-by-20 rule will require 3 levels of Sorcerer, Wizard, Spirit Shaman, or Druid by level 20 anyhow. Arcane Archer sets this level 1 precedence.

While I would like that if I were a shifter, it would make some builds much stronger since then you could use 2 other classes to strengthen the shifter. The best that comes to my mind is 3 druid,3rogue,4fighter, 20 shifter. That allows you get unarmed weapon mastery and higher bab.

I get the balancing part of the decision. I just argue that the requirements are not consistent with other prestige classes.

There is a sort of DnD rule/tradition that no PrCs (except class kits) can be taken before lvl 6 of PC.

[joleda]

While I would like that if I were a shifter, it would make some builds much stronger since then you could use 2 other classes to strengthen the shifter. The best that comes to my mind is 3 druid,3rogue,4fighter, 20 shifter. That allows you get unarmed weapon mastery and higher bab.

I get the balancing part of the decision. I just argue that the requirements are not consistent with other prestige classes.

There is a sort of DnD rule/tradition that no PrCs (except class kits) can be taken before lvl 6 of PC.

That's what a BAB requirement is for.

[Kalgain]

Which skills can be used while shifted?

heal?
open lock?
taunt?
disable device?

[EasternCheesE]

Which skills can be used while shifted?

heal?
open lock?
taunt?
disable device?

You can use all passive skills like hide/ms (and all modes), you can use open lock/disarm trap (you can only disarm though, can't recover).
Can't taunt, can't heal with medkits, can't feint etc.

[Kalgain]

thanks for the quick reply

On paper, shifter looks so nice, but without being able to heal through potions or through heal skill, the shifter does not look so appealing any longer.