Chiontar Seagull

[YYA]

In my opinion, Chiontar Seagull, should be a feat that exists for Sneak Attack based characters. You know, if they encounter high spot opponent who detects them the moment they attempt to hide, then these characters could try to make use of Chiontar Seagull combat maneuver to land that one Sneak Attack on that enemy. You know, deny Dexterity to armor, and you can land sneak attacks. However, as it stands, the Tumble check is countered by either Spot or Sense Motive skill roll from the opponent, and the Spot skill roll will always be higher simply because people want to detect those sneaks. Therefore, I would suggest that the Tumble skill roll would only be countered by Sense Motive, which is usually in my experience the less invested skill, just as Tumble tends to be for Sneaks. Moreover, Sense Motive as a counter would make far more sense as a your character would actually understand the goal of the opponent's sudden movements, instead of merely seeing them play out as Spot skill would allow.

A Rogue 30 could have something like 22d6 Sneak Attack Dice, and even though some might be terrified of being hit with that, a typical Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue gets 3 attacks in the first Flurry with just Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and 4 attacks with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. The 22d6 Sneak Attack dice is not nearly as much as 66d6 or 88d6.

And the primary method in which a Rogue deals out those Sneak Attack flurries is by popping out of stealth, and due to the stealth mechanics of this game the moment our Rogue can be detected he automatically will be. Thus, at the cost of a feat, a detected Rogue might still have a chance to fight back, or get himself killed by falling on his back.

I just wanted to suggest this simply because a character of mine with no Spot/Listen Investment, with that -1 Wisdom modifier, just kept spotting low level sneaks up and down the server areas.

[DaloLorn]

In my experience, stealth gear works quite nicely to defeat unprepared spotters... as do high DEX and the stealth feats.

That's not answering your complaint about landing sneak attacks in single combat, though, so let me try again:

Hide in the Shadows is shockingly effective at enabling sneak attacks. (Unless the enemy has True Seeing, I guess.) If you pass the Reflex check, you become ethereal for a split-second, and depending on your respective initiative rolls, this can enable you to land a couple of sneak attacks even if there's no alternative target the enemy could switch to.

As I understand it, there are two possible reasons to reject your proposal:

1. Sense Motive cannot be placed on NPCs in the toolkit. Spot can, so Feint and Chiontar Seagull both need to be balanced against Spot. It sucks, but I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon.
2. Chiontar Seagull is already a lot more effective than Feint. Feint rolls Bluff versus BAB+Spot, whereas Chiontar Seagull rolls Tumble versus Spot/Sense Motive. Because of the extra AC it provides, most rogues worth their salt will have a lot of Tumble ranks even if they don't intend to spec into Chiontar Seagull; maxing out Bluff isn't quite as likely unless you're doing it for Feint or RP purposes.
   
   Granted, this is slightly counterbalanced by the fact that Feint only costs you one attack, whereas Chiontar Seagull costs you an entire round... but not by much, and Chiontar Seagull doesn't specify any circumstances under which it might be further disadvantaged or made impossible, whereas the effectiveness of Feint is diminished or outright negated by the stats of many PvE opponents. (Some have 2 or less INT, some aren't humanoid... some are dumb as bricks and non-humanoid.)

On a related note: Thanks for the input on what my wildcard feat should be on Dae. I had exactly one feat slot unaccounted for, and having yet another way of landing sneak attacks sounds like a great choice, especially since she's not maxing out Bluff for her Feints. The fact that she's been an unstoppable acrobat since the minute I conceived her also helps.

Edit: Ohh, I only now noticed it only landed one attack instead of a whole flurry, and could knock you down if you failed. That changes things considerably... Yeah, maybe some kind of buff would be appropriate here.

(... And maybe I should have kept Tumble Focus instead of Escape Artist Focus... I forgot just how heavily her concept centered around jumping and climbing literally anywhere she wanted. )

[YYA]

Speaking of monsters, I wonder if there is a work around by making monsters wield an irremovable item that simply pertains a sense motive skill bonus. But no idea on the actual feasibility of it, and regardless you would have to update every stock mob of the server. So not sure if anyone would be up to the task, but if they were, then perhaps Feint could be changed to only account for Sense Motive too instead of Spot, as it should.

Or perhaps alternatively, Chiontar Seagull could forgo Spot and Sense Motive entirely, and simply be a Tumble Skill Roll against the DC of an opponent's Highest AB attack + 1d20.

It might actually give someone a mechanical reason to go for 33 Tumble instead of just 30. So if we assume a typical sneak with +12 Dexterity modifier, and possibly some random +12 or so from his sneak equipment to Tumble.

33 (Skill Ranks)
+ 12 (Dexterity Modifier)
+ 12 (Random item modifiers)
= 57 + (1d20)

And if we on the other hand consider some of the highest ABs players could have with Barbarian 20/Fighter 10:
30 (BAB)
+ 17 (Strength Modifier with Epic Rage)
+ 3 (Epic Weapon Weapon Focus)
+ 1 (Epic Prowess)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 8 (Divine Power Elixir)
+ 1 (Battletide Elixir)
+ 3 (Divine Favour Elixir)
+ 3 (Recitation Elixir)
= 76 + 1d20

In other words, it would be very likely to land at least one sneak attack on just about any opponent through Chiontar Seagull. But if you fail, flop you are on your back.

[Tanlaus]

IIRC chiontar seagull does not make an opponent flat footed. So even if you land an attack it won’t be a sneak attack. Which makes it pretty much worthless in my opinion.

Unless something has changed since that last discussion.

[YYA]

IIRC chiontar seagull does not make an opponent flat footed. So even if you land an attack it won’t be a sneak attack. Which makes it pretty much worthless in my opinion.

Unless something has changed since that last discussion.

It was what the feat was supposed to do, originally. So yeah, it really is a truly worthless feat if does not even allow one to land that single sneak attack.

[Tanlaus]

IIRC chiontar seagull does not make an opponent flat footed. So even if you land an attack it won’t be a sneak attack. Which makes it pretty much worthless in my opinion.

Unless something has changed since that last discussion.

It was what the feat was supposed to do, originally. So yeah, it really is a truly worthless feat if does not even allow one to land that single sneak attack.

Yeah I can see it being a decent but definitely not OP rogue feat if the opponent was made flat footed. But without that it’s not worth it for anyone…

Maybe the issue is flat footed lasts long enough to open up more sneak attacks. I don’t know…

Hmmm… maybe there’s a way for the feat, if landed, to apply sneak dice to your damage roll…

But actually I think making an opponent flat footed wouldn’t be so bad. With the chance of being knocked down and only a single attack it’s less powerful than feint.

[YYA]

Well, it could be quite deadly if there are more than two rogues. One uses Chiontar Seagul and gets that one sneak attack and flatfoots the enemy, while the other rogue gets a chance to land a full three attack flurries worth of sneak attacks. So, in such a case it might need a three or so round cooldown like other similar abilities, such as Shield Slam.

But if it simply checks up the total damage dice to just add it as bonus damage to the attack while denying dexterity to AC, it could work without a cooldown. But what complicates the matter then are things like Critical Hit Immunity, and Epic Precision, at least if you want the feat to go in accordance other sneak attack rules. If you want it to go in accordance of other sneak attack rules, because Chiontar Seagul could act as a pre-epic method of overcoming Critical Hit Immunities, which would be another reason for a roguish character to pick up the feat, even if comes with the risk of getting knocked down.

Edit: After all, it does not take that long before Rogues get 2 attacks in the first flurry. It is just BAB 6 with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

[Tanlaus]

Well, it could be quite deadly if there are more than two rogues. One uses Chiontar Seagul and gets that one sneak attack and flatfoots the enemy, while the other rogue gets a chance to land a full three attack flurries worth of sneak attacks. So, in such a case it might need a three or so round cooldown like other similar abilities, such as Shield Slam.

But if it simply checks up the total damage dice to just add it as bonus damage to the attack while denying dexterity to AC, it could work without a cooldown. But what complicates the matter then are things like Critical Hit Immunity, and Epic Precision, at least if you want the feat to go in accordance other sneak attack rules. If you want it to go in accordance of other sneak attack rules, because Chiontar Seagul could act as a pre-epic method of overcoming Critical Hit Immunities, which would be another reason for a roguish character to pick up the feat, even if comes with the risk of getting knocked down.

Edit: After all, it does not take that long before Rogues get 2 attacks in the first flurry. It is just BAB 6 with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

Hmmm… yes bypassing SA immunity is probably not good. Don’t get me wrong I prefer the Pathfinder method where all rogues basically start with precision. Meaning there no sneak immunity just half damage to undead and other “sneak immune” things.

And actually even with multiple rogues making an opponent flat footed would be the same is it it were feinted now. Everyone gets sneak attacks. Difference is there’s no major downside to feinting but it costs two feats instead of 1.

[YYA]

Feinting also requires equipment investment, which in turn leans more heavily towards the creation of some kind of a EDM build.

[Tanlaus]

True, but a useful Chiontar Seagull would make all those + tumble items worth something for a change.

[mastajabba]

I can tell you from experience that most players in this server do not have high spot.

[YYA]

Yes and no. It depends on level range of players, because even a ' *** ' level range player could be a character at level 21 while the sneak sits at level 30, which means that the +9 level difference in skill ranks doesn't last forever, the treshold will be eventually crossed. And frankly, even with the custom sneak visual effect, you still might not even notice all the detected sneakers who are just sneaking by or standing around if they are usually just standing around in one and same location.

[DaloLorn]

Yes and no. It depends on level range of players, because even a ' *** ' level range player could be a character at level 21 while the sneak sits at level 30, which means that the +9 level difference in skill ranks doesn't last forever, the treshold will be eventually crossed. And frankly, even with the custom sneak visual effect, you still might not even notice all the detected sneakers who are just sneaking by or standing around if they are usually just standing around in one and same location.

As I understand it, the custom sneak animation only appears to the sneak themselves. Anyone else sees you as walking.

[YYA]

People in same party sometimes see it, if you can spot the sneak.

But yeah, been thinking of a use for current Chiontar Seagull, and the only use I can come up with is to help a flanking Rogue land few more sneak attacks. So, not the greatest feat.