Implement a sickle with capped EB 2 Vamp 2 to Epic merchant

[Hoihe]

If only it was that simple....

There are many more parameters you need to take into consideration. But generally an additional vamp regen is better than any kind of d4 damage.

I don't disagree. But it's one more vamp regen with 1 less EB and less damage. More tanky even so? Yes. Does the current alternative fall woefully short? No I used to use one. It's pretty good. The vamp regen makes a difference. On top of it being decent DPS.

Also one thing I forgot to mention, vamp regen only works if you do damage which can be an issue with finesse builds and high untyped DR... but the negative energy component is so rarely resisted I can't remember anything that actually did resist it. So you can always count on getting some vamp regen even against extremely high untyped DR epic monsters.

Its very easy to prove to you that vamp regen is more essential. The general idea is that Vamp regen is not ideal when you are not taking damage, ie when you are fighting fodder spawns. Against bosses, (or spawns with high AB or Sustain ) where you actually will get hit vamp regen tramps any d4 damage you can get on a weapon. I will get a +2vamp regen weapon over a d4 damage, all the time.

My own argument is more on the side of...


You fight numerous mobs to finish a dungeon. Each fight, even with AB+20 AC, you will lose 30-60 HP.

This for strength tank characters is easily countered by trading 1 lbs carry capacity for 20 to 50 HP (Heal skill + kits). Heal kits are cheap (65 gold for 20-50 HP), and their weight doesn't hurt strength characters.

For ptwf finesse, you kill enemies fast enough that you can avoid taking dmg due to nat 20s. Worst case, your stealth gear allows you to skip mobs to ninja loot.

For frontline finesse, your very class (swash/du) is built around the idea of prolonged/windup combat. This works excellent for bosses, but for generic mobs your windup advantage (str drain, con drain) both do not have time to fire, while you also take 2-3 rounds to kill cr appropriate mobs. This gives them the chance to take 30-60 HP off you. Due to low strength, you cannot really carry healing kits (if you do: you'll have no room for loot, and since quantity > quality...), you'll have to use clickies or potions of Heal which are 800-1000 gp for 100 HP.

It is suggested for front-line finesse to to use UMD to counter nat 20 through mirror image.

However, Mirror image is
A) Costly (lasts 3 minutes, so cannot keep it up for each fight unless you run the whole dungeon.)
B) Requires UMD (while my build has no issues with magic, I remember a similar duelist who did not trust magic.)


A vamp-regen finesse weapon can allow a frontline finesse PC to avoid the need for UMD or costly healing potions. While the frontline finesse won't have to buy 65 gp healing kits like str tank equivalent (although str tank has a vamp 2 sword and shortspear in store already, so this comparison could be moot) - they also cannot carry as much loot and often have to leave behind full plates, tower shield and the like.


From a vague test run,

at 52 AC I ran Reaching Woods. 20 minute to clear due to fights around chests, so that'd be 7 charges of mirror image (assuming they don't run out). I didn't use MI, and relied on my vamp regen rapier. Twice, my HP was reduced to 120-160 from 320 due to nat 20s in crowds (ergo: faster than i can out-heal with my rapier). Without my rapier or clickies, I'd have spent around 1600-2000 gold on healing. My loot was 4000 gold. Without vamp regen, it'd have been 2000-ish (assuming healing), or 2500 using mirror image (assuming 7 charges, at 11500 to recharge from 1 to 50). Even with vamp regen, I was forced to leave a full plate +2 behind, as I had 55 lbs entering the area. This is a low-ball though for healing, as I had many times I took 30 dmg which I healed up without really counting how many times it happened.

I think an item that allows dex frontliners to make a few heal pots or MI charges more gold than they currently do, at a steep investment (for someone who dungeon runs 2 or 3 times a week) at 150K using a vamp 2 weapon wouldn't hurt anyone.

And those who loot run more than that probably loot the RIG ones already.

While I have not tracked my yuan-ti runs directly, I do know that having vamp regen is the reason I can run that dungeon at all due to its length and need to enter it super light weight (nearest shop is very far without teleportation, and encumberence disables all my abilities). I say this as I've tried running it with the Shield + 3 rapier and lost to attrition. Attrition with 2 Austruth flutes, 3 mad gent's gloves, 1 pearly white ioun stone, 1 canteen.

[DaloLorn]

Hoihe's logic checks out here, as does Steve's summary. Unless your own AB royally stinks, the endurance granted by a VR weapon far outweighs any marginal improvements in encounter duration provided by a more damaging weapon.

[EasternCheesE]

Hoihe's logic checks out here, as does Steve's summary. Unless your own AB royally stinks, the endurance granted by a VR weapon far outweighs any marginal improvements in encounter duration provided by a more damaging weapon.

Well, it has always been like that, be it dexer or whatever else. AC 100 MaA will take same dmg in same areas if they don't have means to heal or DR or concealment. Anyone have 5% chance to be hit, except for users of 50% concealment which lowers it to 2,5%. The faster PC kills, the less crits they get, so, sometimes, putting into offense instead of defense is a more viable survival strategy. Vamp weapons are surely a golden thing, because it basically outweighs any regen items that can be stacked (and can be combined with it in fact), but what's even better is DR. If one reduces incoming damage by 10, it's equal to vamp regen 10 for each hit they take.
So, it's basically DR > Vamp regen > Regen.

And MrMentalist proved that point by taking UMDless barb and killing Balor in casual fashion of solo facetanking and hitting it.

Speaking of "not enough carry capacity", it always is amusing for me to hear. My PC has 130 overall carry capacity, which leaves me with 86 until getting yellow. My regular gear weights from 35 to 42 lbs, so i have 51 carry capacity at best case and, i still am totally able to hold at least 10 of medpacks if needed. And, if one is worried about their carry capacity, there are mad gent's gloves exist, which offer 3x ~20 hp healing for 1 lbs of weight. I have 3, but i don't get hit so often, so i have 1 pair of these and 1 pair of gloves that give 2/day mass cure moderate wounds, which is enough to recover my hp (254 max hp) when it goes too low.

There is a lot of 1-4 lbs weight items that one can sell for 1400 and get profit. I totally leave heavy loot behind unless it's super good, in this case, i just put it somewhere to grab it when i return to safe place.

[Hoihe]

Hoihe's logic checks out here, as does Steve's summary. Unless your own AB royally stinks, the endurance granted by a VR weapon far outweighs any marginal improvements in encounter duration provided by a more damaging weapon.

Well, it has always been like that, be it dexer or whatever else. AC 100 MaA will take same dmg in same areas if they don't have means to heal or DR or concealment. Anyone have 5% chance to be hit, except for users of 50% concealment which lowers it to 2,5%. The faster PC kills, the less crits they get, so, sometimes, putting into offense instead of defense is a more viable survival strategy. Vamp weapons are surely a golden thing, because it basically outweighs any regen items that can be stacked (and can be combined with it in fact), but what's even better is DR. If one reduces incoming damage by 10, it's equal to vamp regen 10 for each hit they take.
So, it's basically DR > Vamp regen > Regen.

And MrMentalist proved that point by taking UMDless barb and killing Balor in casual fashion of solo facetanking and hitting it.

Speaking of "not enough carry capacity", it always is amusing for me to hear. My PC has 130 overall carry capacity, which leaves me with 86 until getting yellow. My regular gear weights from 35 to 42 lbs, so i have 51 carry capacity at best case and, i still am totally able to hold at least 10 of medpacks if needed. And, if one is worried about their carry capacity, there are mad gent's gloves exist, which offer 3x ~20 hp healing for 1 lbs of weight. I have 3, but i don't get hit so often, so i have 1 pair of these and 1 pair of gloves that give 2/day mass cure moderate wounds, which is enough to recover my hp (254 max hp) when it goes too low.

There is a lot of 1-4 lbs weight items that one can sell for 1400 and get profit. I totally leave heavy loot behind unless it's super good, in this case, i just put it somewhere to grab it when i return to safe place.

I have specifically noted that getting through Yuan-ti temple, with 2 flutes, 3 gloves and a bunch of vigor items - left me with no healing left while being far from finishing.

And carry capacity - Yuan-ti, Orzogoth, Wyrm cave are very far from the nearest NPC to sell unless you're part of EDE or can enter Soubar. If neither, you're SoL.

Barb specifically falls under "high strength melee", combined with innate DR and high con too. It's as far as you can get from a swash/du as possible. And also, the issue is not bosses - it's getting to the boss. I can solo bosses with or without vamp regen - however, long dungeons with few rest spots force vamp regen or UMD.

As for AC 100 MaA & barbarians - AC100 MaA & barbarians has a freely available non-alignment locked shortspear at Roaringshore to use that costs an affordable amount with vamp regen. For frontline dex on the surface, no NPC store vamp regen weapon exists. If they got UMD, they also have the Nine Lives Stealer.

Vamp regen weapons exist, but not available to finesse PCs. Sure, dual-wielding can make it potentially OP for dexers, hence my attempts at formulating a sickle that may be too heavy to carry 2 of, and sacrifice damage.

A rapier would work too for preventing PtWF shenanigans, but rapiers are powerful weapons with good synergy, and thus would likely require 400K+ to be fair, not the 100-150K item I am thinking of an "entry level frontline dexer solution".

Alternatively, a Large finesse weapon being invented. Supposedly making finesseable weapons is possible in a hack-y way, but I think that's far too much work for what I am trying to solve:

What I'm trying to solve:
A) Parity between finesse and strength weapons being sold. We do have sneak attack/TWF finesse, but not really things useful for frontliners.
B) An entry-level, affordable option of new front-line finesse characters they can set as an achievable goal without constant loot runs (thus: cheap and available in an NPC shop. Where cheap is around 150K)
C) Minimize its power as a PTWF option somehow while avoiding being a "powerful" weapon type. Hence: sickle with extra weight rather than rapier

[YYA]

Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is a feat, and it will benefit anyone who wants to dual wield rapiers even on a dexterity based build.

Anyhow, Vampiric Regeneration is kind of an evil weapon property, so not sure if goodly aligned characters should even make use of them.

Moreover, you do not always have to fight the entire area to reach the boss. There is Sanctuary, Ethrealness, Invisibility, Stealth skills, Teleportation, etc...

So how about people just suggest weapons they would like to see, with names and bit of lore, because such might just pop into the server if someone else actually sees the effort to open the Toolset.

Cursed Sickle of the Shadow Druids

The Shadow Druids of Cloakwood forest see their forest as the sole sanctuary of true nature, one that they are willing to protect to their last breath, and therefore; do not think twice to bring the full wrath of nature upon whoever dares upset the precious 'balance' of their forest. This cursed Sickle was used as a ritual blade of these Druids, and whoever touches it is sure to bring forth the worst woes nature could ever inflict. Anyone in their right mind would prefer to see such a vile blade desroyed before it can cause great harm, but adventurers are not always of the best of mind. A foolish adventurer might wish to exploit nature's wrath for their own nefarious purposes, they might seek to trade or combat Shadow Druids for these sickles, or pay a king's ransom for whoever managed to return with one these cursed ritual weapons.

Sickle, 1d6,
Cold Iron (Lore Reasons)

+ 4 Enchantment Bonus
+ 2 Vampiric Regeneration
On hit: 25% Poison, 1d4 Constitution, DC 15
On Hit: 25% Disease, 1d4 Strength, DC 15
- 5 Constitution
- 5 Fortitude Saves

Restrictions:
Alignment: Evil, Neutral
Class: Druid

[Hoihe]

Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is a feat, and it will benefit anyone who wants to dual wield rapiers even on a dexterity based build.

Anyhow, Vampiric Regeneration is kind of an evil weapon property, so not sure if goodly aligned characters should even make use of them.

Moreover, you do not always have to fight the entire area to reach the boss. There is Sanctuary, Ethrealness, Invisibility, Stealth skills, Teleportation, etc...

So how about people just suggest weapons they would like to see, with names and bit of lore, because such might just pop into the server if someone else actually sees the effort to open the Toolset.

Cursed Sickle of the Shadow Druids

The Shadow Druids of Cloakwood forest see their forest as the sole sanctuary of true nature, one that they are willing to protect to their last breath, and therefore; do not think twice to bring the full wrath of nature upon whoever dares upset the precious 'balance' of their forest. This cursed Sickle was used as a ritual blade of these Druids, and whoever touches it is sure to bring forth the worst woes nature could ever inflict. Anyone in their right mind would prefer to see such a vile blade desroyed before it can cause great harm, but adventurers are not always of the best of mind. A foolish adventurer might wish to exploit nature's wrath for their own nefarious purposes, they might seek to trade or combat Shadow Druids for these sickles, or pay a king's ransom for whoever managed to return with one these cursed ritual weapons.

Sickle, 1d6,
Cold Iron (Lore Reasons)

+ 4 Enchantment Bonus
+ 2 Vampiric Regeneration
On hit: 25% Poison, 1d4 Constitution, DC 15
On Hit: 25% Disease, 1d4 Strength, DC 15
- 5 Constitution
- 5 Fortitude Saves

Restrictions:
Alignment: Evil, Neutral
Class: Druid

viewtopic.php?p=831682#p831682

Subject: DM Rulings: A Record of DM Decisions

Updated 30/7/2018

Vampiric Regeneration
For the purposes of staying true to alignment, vampiric regeneration on weapons is not considered to be evil. Paladins and other good-aligned characters can wield weapons with this enchantment without worry that they are betraying their alignment.

See also, the spell Vampiric Touch, which does not have the "Evil" spell descriptor.

DM ruling says vampiric regeneration is not evil, and usable by paladins. And if usable by paladins, the strictest Good Aligned behaviour-coded class (bar maybe specialist priests of specific gods) - anyone can use it.


Further, the suggested item runs contrary to the idea: making new characters (and potentially old characters who list their items due to bugs or RP) to be able to recover without relying on luck (save up 150K vs keep looting until one of the vamp regen kukris drop). While Vamp Regen was ruled as a neutral property, the disease and poison would cause issues.

Do implement it, but not at cost of a cheap "entry-level" option that's weaker than the shortspear and longsword.

[DaloLorn]

I believe what Hoihe is saying here can be more succinctly summarized as (and forgive me for summarizing, but I feel it might maybe reduce misunderstandings in this case):

"Sure, your idea's good, but it doesn't quite cover what I want because [read her post for details]. Why don't we do both?"

Not a sentiment I can disagree with, for my part.

[EasternCheesE]

I totally agree on the "give more diversity to items". Having very good epic martial weapon while nothing even remotely as good with simple/exotic is meh to me.
Someone can get +4 EB, 2 vamp regen and 1d4 massive crits for martial proficiency PC. Why others can't have +3 vamp regen 2 for simple weapon (martial still better cause it requires martial, thus, not so easy to use). But, to me, it's related to whole epic shop content that caters to specific playstyle more than to others and it's not related to UMD or build survivability in general because items are not the only mean to survive. Having +1 vamp regen but not having +2 vamp regen doesn't change things so dramatically compared to Barb DR or just 21 con Epic DR or DR spells/abilities or concealment.

[DaloLorn]

Barb DR or just 21 con Epic DR or DR spells/abilities change things in battle way more than +1 or +2 vamp regen anyway.

While true, none of those are available to the concept Hoihe is playing. I've got a swashbuckler of my own, and he's going to be every bit as sustain-challenged as Atria (I assume it's Atria, at least...) if he gets into epics.

[Hoihe]

I totally agree on the "give more diversity to items". Having very good epic martial weapon while nothing even remotely as good with simple/exotic is meh to me.
Someone can get +4 EB, 2 vamp regen and 1d4 massive crits for martial proficiency PC. Why others can't have +3 vamp regen 2 for simple weapon (martial still better cause it requires martial, thus, not so easy to use). But, to me, it's related to whole epic shop content that caters to specific playstyle more than to others and it's not related to UMD or build survivability in general because items are not the only mean to survive. Having +1 vamp regen but not having +2 vamp regen doesn't change things so dramatically compared to Barb DR or just 21 con Epic DR or DR spells/abilities or concealment.

In my experience, of trying to run some dungeons with +3 shield rapier vs vamp rapier, it can make or break the ability to loot.

And technically simple/exotic is already sorted: shortspears. The issue is more of finesse vs strength.

(Appraise 7)

Something like this, but for finesse characters. I'm fine with thrice the cost too. Martial or simple doesn't matter that much I feel.

[EasternCheesE]

Barb DR or just 21 con Epic DR or DR spells/abilities change things in battle way more than +1 or +2 vamp regen anyway.

While true, none of those are available to the concept Hoihe is playing. I've got a swashbuckler of my own, and he's going to be every bit as sustain-challenged as Atria (I assume it's Atria, at least...) if he gets into epics.

Sure, i speak of things in general, not about Hoihe's exact build. When we discussed her build, i gave my suggestions and it still holds the same in my view: instead of beefing up AC, it's better to focus on increasing dmg output cause killing too slow means more crits to chug.

I totally agree on the "give more diversity to items". Having very good epic martial weapon while nothing even remotely as good with simple/exotic is meh to me.
Someone can get +4 EB, 2 vamp regen and 1d4 massive crits for martial proficiency PC. Why others can't have +3 vamp regen 2 for simple weapon (martial still better cause it requires martial, thus, not so easy to use). But, to me, it's related to whole epic shop content that caters to specific playstyle more than to others and it's not related to UMD or build survivability in general because items are not the only mean to survive. Having +1 vamp regen but not having +2 vamp regen doesn't change things so dramatically compared to Barb DR or just 21 con Epic DR or DR spells/abilities or concealment.

In my experience, of trying to run some dungeons with +3 shield rapier vs vamp rapier, it can make or break the ability to loot.

And technically simple/exotic is already sorted: shortspears. The issue is more of finesse vs strength.

Speaking of finesse weapons, i don't recollect any with +2 vamp regen available. There is a +3 dagger with 1 vamp regen and there is a +3 sickle with 1d4 negative dmg and 1 vamp regen too. I myself used to use a pair of these and they saved my PC's life many times, even with my lowish AB and 7 APR while being TWF build.

I agree that, in my view, every weapon class (simple/martial/exotic etc also small/medium/big weapons etc) should have at least 1 item with same or similar properties. Finessable/non-finessable also fall into these categories since daggers, shortswords, sickles, hatchets, those little hammers are either tiny or small and are finessable.
Also, shortspears are not really exotic proficiency weapons, so they don't fall into "exotic is sorted". Uncommon weapon is not exotic.

[Hoihe]

Barb DR or just 21 con Epic DR or DR spells/abilities change things in battle way more than +1 or +2 vamp regen anyway.

While true, none of those are available to the concept Hoihe is playing. I've got a swashbuckler of my own, and he's going to be every bit as sustain-challenged as Atria (I assume it's Atria, at least...) if he gets into epics.

Sure, i speak of things in general, not about Hoihe's exact build. When we discussed her build, i gave my suggestions and it still holds the same in my view: instead of beefing up AC, it's better to focus on increasing dmg output cause killing too slow means more crits to chug.

I totally agree on the "give more diversity to items". Having very good epic martial weapon while nothing even remotely as good with simple/exotic is meh to me.
Someone can get +4 EB, 2 vamp regen and 1d4 massive crits for martial proficiency PC. Why others can't have +3 vamp regen 2 for simple weapon (martial still better cause it requires martial, thus, not so easy to use). But, to me, it's related to whole epic shop content that caters to specific playstyle more than to others and it's not related to UMD or build survivability in general because items are not the only mean to survive. Having +1 vamp regen but not having +2 vamp regen doesn't change things so dramatically compared to Barb DR or just 21 con Epic DR or DR spells/abilities or concealment.

In my experience, of trying to run some dungeons with +3 shield rapier vs vamp rapier, it can make or break the ability to loot.

And technically simple/exotic is already sorted: shortspears. The issue is more of finesse vs strength.

Speaking of finesse weapons, i don't recollect any with +2 vamp regen available. There is a +3 dagger with 1 vamp regen and there is a +3 sickle with 1d4 negative dmg and 1 vamp regen too. I myself used to use a pair of these and they saved my PC's life many times, even with my lowish AB and 7 APR while being TWF build.

I agree that, in my view, every weapon class (simple/martial/exotic etc also small/medium/big weapons etc) should have at least 1 item with same or similar properties. Finessable/non-finessable also fall into these categories since daggers, shortswords, sickles, hatchets, those little hammers are either tiny or small and are finessable.
Also, shortspears are not really exotic proficiency weapons, so they don't fall into "exotic is sorted". Uncommon weapon is not exotic.

What I meant was "simple is sorted".

[gotesu]

Why not just add a +3 or+2 EB +2 VR weapons for sale for every weapon to some vendor? (like the KH vendor who sells all +3 weapons)

[Hoihe]

Why not just add a +3 or+2 EB +2 VR weapons for sale for every weapon to some vendor? (like the KH vendor who sells all +3 weapons)

Could work, but idea is to minimize effort.

1 cheap finesse (sickle) for 1 cheap strength (spear) as a starting point.

Afterwards, may expand to the rest - but that takes harder convincing, and more dev work. Better a small step that is plausible, than something that may be shot down for more reasons.

[EasternCheesE]

Why not just add a +3 or+2 EB +2 VR weapons for sale for every weapon to some vendor? (like the KH vendor who sells all +3 weapons)

To me, common weapons in each category are:

Simple/finessable: dagger. Works for both str or dex, is simple and is small.
Martial: longsword (str), kukri (finessable).
Exotic: Bastard sword (str), kama (finessable).

Thins like hatchets, katanas, spears, are less common than these weapons (doesn't mean they are not common in general). It simply means that if some less common weapon has some unique properties, i'd love to see a dagger, longsword, kukri, bastard sword and kama with similar properties so every PC archetype could use them without relying on RIG too much. So, not offering the best possible picks (cause hatchets are always better than sickles mechanically etc), but giving base weapon options for such properties too.

Though, it's hard to balance things, i shall admit. Reading through Epic item discussions, it tends to bring lot of argument for each side and it's hard to find the golden middle.