Should we lessen restrictions on the Underdark? [Poll]

[Rhifox]

Currently Boareskyr Bridge contains the entrance to En Dharasha Everae.

An alternate approach at the moment is to - again - cross Boareskyr, High Moors, Misty Forest and finally transition thru the hidden waypoint.

Getting to EDE is already troublesome due to vicinity of Soubar. Encouraging drow to hang out in that area - right outside the guild town of a chaotic good race that hate drow....

is not a good idea, even if you need a key to use the stone circle.

I'd say we could add a path through Trollclaws that goes to a new area comprised of the road between Dragonspear and Boareskyr. So you could have two paths to the north by this direction: the current Thundar->Boareskyr->Misty, and Thundar->Trollclaws->North of Boareskyr->Misty. We could also add another Winding Water boat in Trollclaws that allows people to go to fire giants. Or even just actually have a land route through High Moor and/or Serpent Hills to the Greypeaks.

And if we could ideally support Kraak Helzak as the 'good-aligned Soubar' (in terms of being a convenient offloading point for characters adventuring in the north), that'd be great, I think. Once the caravans are fixed, and a Trollclaws->north route added, good players could easily take wagon from BG to Kraak Helzak and then go north from there to their adventuring areas.

That sounds like a solution, although the stone circle by the bridge remains a possible point of contention - if Boareskyr becomes a place for drow etc to hang out, accessing EDE for low level citizens (who cannot go the long way through Misty) may become impossible.

I am uncertain how to resolve it. Tuck may be able to assist in perhaps moving that stone circle to the new map or I dunno.

Would be very easy to add a runestone to a new map, as well. No reason why EDE might only have one. Multiple paths with elf magic.

[mrm3ntalist]

I'd say we could add a path through Trollclaws that goes to a new area comprised of the road between Dragonspear and Boareskyr. So you could have two paths to the north by this direction: the current Thundar->Boareskyr->Misty, and Thundar->Trollclaws->North of Boareskyr->Misty. We could also add another Winding Water boat in Trollclaws that allows people to go to fire giants. Or even just actually have a land route through High Moor and/or Serpent Hills to the Greypeaks.

And if we could ideally support Kraak Helzak as the 'good-aligned Soubar' (in terms of being a convenient offloading point for characters adventuring in the north), that'd be great, I think. Once the caravans are fixed, and a Trollclaws->north route added, good players could easily take wagon from BG to Kraak Helzak and then go north from there to their adventuring areas.

That sounds like a solution, although the stone circle by the bridge remains a possible point of contention - if Boareskyr becomes a place for drow etc to hang out, accessing EDE for low level citizens (who cannot go the long way through Misty) may become impossible.

I am uncertain how to resolve it. Tuck may be able to assist in perhaps moving that stone circle to the new map or I dunno.

Would be very easy to add a runestone to a new map, as well. No reason why EDE might only have one. Multiple paths with elf magic.

I dont make decisions regarding EDE anymore but what Hoihe is talking about was never an issue for EDE members. The village is supposed to be difficult to access and it was kind of an unofficial requirement that someone should be able to make to the village on their own (even if it meant teleporting or going ethereal ) in order for them to be accepted in the guild. I wouldnt change a thing but right now it is Tuck's decision to make

[Steve]

If you are playing a UD-spawned PC, don’t you want or wouldn’t you want the UD to “be alive,” and engaging place to live out your Characters existence?

Are you going to settle for having your UD toon on the Surface, just to have interaction, because this entire world underground is kinda dead (in terms of NPCs and such)?

Sure, restrictions now are OOC restrictions. But at the same time TRAVEL between the Surface and the UD is supposed to be immensely rare and f’n dangerous, while on BGTSCC it’s a walk in the park (and also a journey often taken OOC).

Nonetheless, more Drow known on the Surface would 120% cause a focused effort to eliminate them, all completely IC driven. That is the guaranteed result here. The Dukes are known to have relations with Mag and Soubar, and as well the whole Dragonspear campaign where the Fist had a super presence…how would Drow NOT be reason to muster a Fist + Advemtures wipe out? Hellz…canon Lore has Baldurs Gate regularly beating the crap out of Roaringshore just to make a point.

Players have cause and right to get ATTENTION IN the UD, and THIS should be the focus here, not “how can we let UDers have campfire chats on the regular topside” because players are lonely in The Basement.

[Planehopper]

If you are playing a UD-spawned PC, don’t you want or wouldn’t you want the UD to “be alive,” and engaging place to live out your Characters existence?

Are you going to settle for having your UD toon on the Surface, just to have interaction, because this entire world underground is kinda dead (in terms of NPCs and such)?

Sure, restrictions now are OOC restrictions. But at the same time TRAVEL between the Surface and the UD is supposed to be immensely rare and f’n dangerous, while on BGTSCC it’s a walk in the park (and also a journey often taken OOC).

Nonetheless, more Drow known on the Surface would 120% cause a focused effort to eliminate them, all completely IC driven. That is the guaranteed result here. The Dukes are known to have relations with Mag and Soubar, and as well the whole Dragonspear campaign where the Fist had a super presence…how would Drow NOT be reason to muster a Fist + Advemtures wipe out? Hellz…canon Lore has Baldurs Gate regularly beating the crap out of Roaringshore just to make a point.

Players have cause and right to get ATTENTION IN the UD, and THIS should be the focus here, not “how can we let UDers have campfire chats on the regular topside” because players are lonely in The Basement.

Yeah. Agreed.

And there are efforts underway to add to the UD areas the things they are missing, and expand upon the areas there.

I'd be onboard with an expansion of the upper dark as well, as it would lead to more natural exchanges in role play.

But if the UD players are feeling left out of stories and RP, it seems like DMs should be down there DMing rather than being used to police pvp on the surface.

I am not in support of creating additional touch points for pvp, and in the process segregating key epic areas away from those that don't want constant conflict.

Its an area design issue and not one I think is a good idea.

[Almarea90]

Ideally yes, there should be a massive work done to make the UD more appealing. But that's not something that is going to happen overnight. In the meantime this solution sounds like an acceptable compromise. When, or if, something is done for the UD then happy days, the UD population will probably increase by itself then. But in the years prior creating this neutral zone imho is better than forcing the UD players to roam alone in the basement.

[Hoihe]

That sounds like a solution, although the stone circle by the bridge remains a possible point of contention - if Boareskyr becomes a place for drow etc to hang out, accessing EDE for low level citizens (who cannot go the long way through Misty) may become impossible.

I am uncertain how to resolve it. Tuck may be able to assist in perhaps moving that stone circle to the new map or I dunno.

Would be very easy to add a runestone to a new map, as well. No reason why EDE might only have one. Multiple paths with elf magic.

I dont make decisions regarding EDE anymore but what Hoihe is talking about was never an issue for EDE members. The village is supposed to be difficult to access and it was kind of an unofficial requirement that someone should be able to make to the village on their own (even if it meant teleporting or going ethereal ) in order for them to be accepted in the guild. I wouldnt change a thing but right now it is Tuck's decision to make

Issue I feel is that there's a difference between getting through a orc infested forest and some bugbear infested swamp,
and getting through what is to be an official drow and banite meeting spot.

[EasternCheesE]

Just to sum up my view:
1) I totally agree that UD needs more UD-related content instead of wider surface interaction (which doesn't hurt in my view anyway). But, making UD-related content and events and building up numbers of active people is quite slow and unreliable process.

2) That's why i voted yes for this initiative. For me, it's not about making drow comfortable in surface, it's not about avoiding PvP that can be caused by a race considered monsters walking under the sun. It's about more legal opportunities to RP with people when UD is so empty nowadays. Having more UD people rping in general helps to build UD community as well. Keeping UD cut off community where most players are concentrated when UD is in severe draught for new or old blood simply doesn't wish to go doesn't help to revive it.

3) We have several DM events in UD recently and we actively try to connect more people into it (thanks, they are cool and fun!), but UD population is still very small. UD people (and there are not only drow there) like their "homeplace" and don't want to see 1-2 same faces all the time, but we also don't want to just give it up.

4) Such a ruling change would actually represent current situation with UD-surface interaction and won't change anything in practice, in fact. Drow on surface will still be hunted and they will still have PvP or fleeing from it just like they do it currently. PvP itself is about both parties having mutual respect and wish for high-quality conflict RP which, to my taste, was toned done severely through recent 3 years because of much of PvP drama and PvP-mongering happened. Drow players on surface do not produce hunting season immediately and they rarely are slain without a single word said. It's just about making it official and not some 50% displaced rules where people don't know what's allowed and what's not.

5) When we speak of no-KoS zones, there is not a single KoS area for surfacer that decides to go to Sshamath, mist lake or Rockrun. You go ogre cave, then you walk upperdark to mist lake boat, then you take caravan to Varallas and 2 more steps into Sshamath. All of these areas are either no-KoS zones or safe zones, so surfacers don't risk anything walking in and out. They can be approached with regular PvP rules in ogre cave, upperdark, but they are not KoS in there at all. While UD PCs are considered KoS everywhere on surface without a single safe zone that they are even allowed to visit (Drow can't visit BG etc and Soubar is not a safe zone outside of merchant area). Even if surfacer goes to UD for grind, all the areas they can actually loot are no-KoS areas and follow exactly these rules that allow them to avoid PvP over and over if they wish to return.

Sorry if i repeat myself, but i just don't have enough words to describe how saddening it is being a single person in UD for half of a day, then having a really nice interaction with surface player and then being said it's a "no-no" thing cause UD is separate world and should be separated.
Making things HDM SummerBreeze proposed doesn't render drow untouchable all of a sudden, it just makes their right to take risks going to northern part of server official.

In perfect world, UD people won't have need to interact with surfacers or go to surface often since we'd have our own RP. In real world, there are too few active UDers to support the whole realm and UD itself lacks fresh experience while UD-surface interactions bring many interesting stories and connections.

[Korchas]

Would be very easy to add a runestone to a new map, as well. No reason why EDE might only have one. Multiple paths with elf magic.

I dont make decisions regarding EDE anymore but what Hoihe is talking about was never an issue for EDE members. The village is supposed to be difficult to access and it was kind of an unofficial requirement that someone should be able to make to the village on their own (even if it meant teleporting or going ethereal ) in order for them to be accepted in the guild. I wouldnt change a thing but right now it is Tuck's decision to make

Issue I feel is that there's a difference between getting through a orc infested forest and some bugbear infested swamp,
and getting through what is to be an official drow and banite meeting spot.

They already have to pass by a Meeting Spot for Banites, Drow and worse ritters, including Mindflayers (who, to mind, literally eat people to propagate) and Werecreatures of all caliber within eyesight of the bridge. And Devils scouring the area.

I think, without meaning any offense, some of you are taking the scope of this way out of proportion and getting tied up in hypotheticals that were already said to be optional and likely to not be the case, namely the 'Meeting Spot Boareskyr Bridge' bit.
Which is extra hilarious because the Boareskyr Bridge is closer to being Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent territory than anyone elses, as those are the factions that send NPCs to protect it when it is attacked.

[mrm3ntalist]

Making things HDM SummerBreeze proposed doesn't render drow untouchable all of a sudden, it just makes their right to take risks going to northern part of server official.

I do not think there are any indications that even with less restrictions drow will be untouchable, so i do not think we should worry about this. On the contrary they will be hunted, the same way they will hunt. Both sides should be prepared for this. Like steve explained there will be player driven IC initiatives aka "Tolerance is Treason" and to be honest I cannot wait for it

There are two concerns I have
- There will be more confrontation RP and more PvP, so we all need to accept it and know how to deal with it. Personally, after a PvP I do not try to interact with the other player but if I sense that the other side is unhappy for whatever reason, I immediately pm the DMs about it and send them picture and/or video captures. With all this I am trying to say that there will be more tension between players and more work for the DMs.

-The second concern is what worries me the most. If you think the UD is empty now, Imagine how it would be once this proposal takes place. I believe that most - if not all - ud population will be up top and there will be a point that a decision will need to be made whether the UD areas should even be on the server.

I think, without meaning any offense, some of you are taking the scope of this way out of proportion and getting tied up in hypotheticals that were already said to be optional and likely to not be the case, namely the 'Meeting Spot Boareskyr Bridge' bit.
Which is extra hilarious because the Boareskyr Bridge is closer to being Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent territory than anyone elses, as those are the factions that send NPCs to protect it when it is attacked.

I think, without meaning any offense, that you are taking the scope of this way out of proportion and getting tied up in hypotheticals. No one is trying to control the area. Hoihe expressed his concern that it might be difficult for players of a guild to have access. That is it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[Ravial]

Multiple paths with elf magic.

[yyj]

If you turn the server into an MMO social grind fest loot server with drow running around the surface adventuring around, me and a lot of other people will probably leave the server.

I am all for cooperative RP with the UD, but this drastic change needs to be well thought out because it can potentially bring the server into chaos.

[Rhifox]

Which is extra hilarious because the Boareskyr Bridge is closer to being Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent territory than anyone elses, as those are the factions that send NPCs to protect it when it is attacked.

Heck, they already are, it's just not visually represented in game. There are already Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent army detachments ICly set up at and around Boareskyr, following all that demon invasion business.

[JIŘÍ]

If you turn the server into an MMO social grind fest loot server with drow running around the surface adventuring around, me and a lot of other people will probably leave the server.

I am all for cooperative RP with the UD, but this drastic change needs to be well thought out because it can potentially bring the server into chaos.

How making everyone equal in terms of rules is a drastic change?

What kind of awknard mindset is that?

Wow.

[mrm3ntalist]

Sorry, but a bunch of paladins who just want walk into Soubar and start swinging blades claiming to cleanse drow will just be godmodding Soubar forces. Such things should be done under DM supervision in first place, i believe.
When you speak that drow can run away when you gather a bunch of folk to kill them, they can do the same by teleporting/hipsing etc away from the middle of the fight. And, being frank, surface PCs are either in neutral zone or in safe zone when they go all the way to Sshamath. So, drow can't shunt away any goodie that wants to come down and shine like a little sun irritating their eyes too. Things are workable on mutual agreement and with mutual consent. Asking for an exclusive right to force people to PvP doesn't sound like enjoyable time for someone who's being forced into it.

It is not a matter of forcing someone into pvp. Just the reported sighting of a drow is a big deal, enough to warrant characters to form hunting parties and go after them.

[VDub]

If you turn the server into an MMO social grind fest loot server with drow running around the surface adventuring around, me and a lot of other people will probably leave the server.

I am all for cooperative RP with the UD, but this drastic change needs to be well thought out because it can potentially bring the server into chaos.

How making everyone equal in terms of rules is a drastic change?

What kind of awknard mindset is that?

Wow.

If we are talking equal. Then the drow players will have no issue with their ECL dropping, right?