Should we lessen restrictions on the Underdark? [Poll]

[JIŘÍ]

If you turn the server into an MMO social grind fest loot server with drow running around the surface adventuring around, me and a lot of other people will probably leave the server.

I am all for cooperative RP with the UD, but this drastic change needs to be well thought out because it can potentially bring the server into chaos.

How making everyone equal in terms of rules is a drastic change?

What kind of awknard mindset is that?

Wow.

If we are talking equal. Then the drow players will have no issue with their ECL dropping, right?

What is this supposed to mean? Tha ti insist on some mechanics? Then you are wrong. I don't care what the pc sheet looks like.

How about people cared more how to promote mutual Intraction be it hostile one or allied one?

Why instead of finding mutual agreement how to handle conflict between two hostile groups and how to promote to have it sense and meaning, people only care how to trash the other side?

I mean who is damaging server and community more. People who want more rp options and interactions or people who point at them call them griefers abusers rule breakers or even imply any change in how things are done on server will mean the other side is auto-griefing immedietly?

People are perfectly fine bringing views etc, to the table. Perspective is just how it works. One man sees [X] as [Y], while the other sees [Y] as [X].

There is nothing wrong thus far with this thread, no one has been hostile to each other thus far, and I feel most I have seen has been constructive criticism, regardless if one may not have a full understanding of something or not. That's when others step up and help clarify and eductate.

I am the ine who is saddened how everyone takes an offence in insignificant thjngs these days.

However when some players imply equaling rules for all players on server means entire part of some player will result in complete griefing from their side THAT is an offence of the worse calibre.

What do you think how much am I motivated as UD player to interact with these people in any way after I read these posts? In past these toxic posts how UD players are griefers and abusers made me every time I met those people ig even on my surface pcs think as first thing do I really wanna waste my time and effort on that guy? And my first urge was always to turn and just walk away from them.

Because constantly trashing part of player base on forum is indeed an awesome way to make these people motivated to play or even stay on BGTSC.

No wonder UD is empty. It is boring these times, people mock you on forum in this threads and when you are a new player first thing you are told by fellow UD players is how surface is full of people ready to grief you out of server. Hard not to belive them when you then read these posts on forum lol.

[Steve]

Because constantly trashing part of player base on forum is indeed an awesome way to make these people motivated to play or even stay on BGTSC.

No wonder UD is empty. It is boring these times, people mock you on forum in this threads and when you are a new player first thing you are told by fellow UD players is how surface is full of people ready to grief you out of server. Hard not to belive them when you then read these posts on forum lol.

No one has, as far as I can tell/read, talking about griefing UD players, or that UD players are lesser players. Nothing of this sort, in the least!

What a lot of players ARE writing, myself included, is that the UD needs some love, an infusion of attention and support. The UD is not completely ignored, but most probably feel this way. Perception is often more influential than reality!

Please do not think that others arguing a different opinion than yours or your "part of the player base" is a trashing. Don't we all need to be able to opine and disagree yet STILL get along?

But hey, if a UD player(s) want to be more on the surface, and I play a anti-Drow PC in principle, and the UD player(s) is willing to accept the Canon Lore supported consequences of being on the Surface, then fine with me, bring it on. But if the UD Player(s) want to be on the Surface but not be subjected or are interested in any conflict-oriented RP that is brought to them, then that's just another form of OOC restriction replacing another!

[Shadowspinner70]

I say bring it on. The change will have IC consequences, as literally every action or rule change does.

Hunting parties? Mobs? Bring it all on! As long as it all follows the rules, and IC law breaking does have consequences, I don't mind people doing as they would ICly do. And in response to hunting parties and mobs, alliances may form -- even sturdier ones than before. Lolthites may use it as an excuse for an anti-surface campaign.

Right now, the Underdark cannot sustain itself. Let's help it sustain itself and people will want to stay. More people will remain below, plot below, have fun below.

Come and get me, Steve.

I've also noticed some slippery slope arguments, which was fun to read.

[Bobthehero]

Which is extra hilarious because the Boareskyr Bridge is closer to being Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent territory than anyone elses, as those are the factions that send NPCs to protect it when it is attacked.

Heck, they already are, it's just not visually represented in game. There are already Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent army detachments ICly set up at and around Boareskyr, following all that demon invasion business.

Before the Demons, even, there was a company of Zhentilar present on the Bridge since the Devils. Eventually it was pulled back (and they had the nasty tendencies of not listening to their Commander... but that's another issue), but yes, Zhent troops near the Bridge should be a common sight for about 2+ years by now.

[Tanlaus]

Which is extra hilarious because the Boareskyr Bridge is closer to being Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent territory than anyone elses, as those are the factions that send NPCs to protect it when it is attacked.

Heck, they already are, it's just not visually represented in game. There are already Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent army detachments ICly set up at and around Boareskyr, following all that demon invasion business.

Before the Demons, even, there was a company of Zhentilar present on the Bridge since the Devils. Eventually it was pulled back (and they had the nasty tendencies of not listening to their Commander... but that's another issue), but yes, Zhent troops near the Bridge should be a common sight for about 2+ years by now.

As a side note it might not hurt to add some to the Soubar side of the bridge. It’s a detail I didn’t know myself despite traveling through there quite a bit. I imagine that’s true of plenty of others.

[Rhifox]

Heck, they already are, it's just not visually represented in game. There are already Ebon Blade/Blackrose/Zhent army detachments ICly set up at and around Boareskyr, following all that demon invasion business.

Before the Demons, even, there was a company of Zhentilar present on the Bridge since the Devils. Eventually it was pulled back (and they had the nasty tendencies of not listening to their Commander... but that's another issue), but yes, Zhent troops near the Bridge should be a common sight for about 2+ years by now.

As a side note it might not hurt to add some to the Soubar side of the bridge. It’s a detail I didn’t know myself despite traveling through there quite a bit. I imagine that’s true of plenty of others.

It's an area building project I'm looking to do, but the proposal needs approval first. I personally want to focus on updating the world to match DM/player initiatives in general, to help make the world feel more alive (like, I made a Fist camp for FAI for next patch for All-Father's stuff). But, stuff takes time, ofc.

Also need to figure out if other groups have long-term presence there, since many, many groups of all alignments have participated in combat actions in the area.

[Tanlaus]

Before the Demons, even, there was a company of Zhentilar present on the Bridge since the Devils. Eventually it was pulled back (and they had the nasty tendencies of not listening to their Commander... but that's another issue), but yes, Zhent troops near the Bridge should be a common sight for about 2+ years by now.

As a side note it might not hurt to add some to the Soubar side of the bridge. It’s a detail I didn’t know myself despite traveling through there quite a bit. I imagine that’s true of plenty of others.

It's an area building project I'm looking to do, but the proposal needs approval first. I personally want to focus on updating the world to match DM/player initiatives in general, to help make the world feel more alive (like, I made a Fist camp for FAI for next patch for All-Father's stuff). But, stuff takes time, ofc.

Also need to figure out if other groups have long-term presence there, since many, many groups of all alignments have participated in combat actions in the area.

That’s great! Even little changes that bring the world to life a bit and reflect the history of events on the server really amplify the immersion factor.

[Maecius]

Let's treat each other respectfully and courteously, please.

It'll also be most helpful if you state your opinion or opinions, and let those opinions stand for themselves. Don't spend energy trying to convince others to your way of seeing things: That's not going to work, has no bearing on the final decision, and it makes the thread less useful to staff as a means for collecting popular opinion. It makes it harder to navigate "at the end" and it frequently dissuades people who are not already engaged from speaking up. Don't try to bait others into a fight, either, because that'll just get the thread locked, further robbing others of their chance to speak.

I would gently suggest that if you have more than 2 or 3 posts here, then you may be dominating the conversation and drowning out other voices. It may be time to make peace with the fact that you've made your opinion clear and it's time to let other people give theirs?

[mrm3ntalist]

I would gently suggest that if you have more than 2 or 3 posts here, then you may be dominating the conversation and drowning out other voices. It may be time to make peace with the fact that you've made your opinion clear and it's time to let other people give theirs?

2-3 post per day? Or 4 eva?

[zhazz]

Personal opinion, based on prior playtime eight years ago, and listening to/reading feedback from Underdark players in the past year.


My main issue with the Underdark here on BG is that it has very little ties to the most widely known and thus sought-after culture.

I'm not advocating for gore-fests, and torture orgies. That's not within the PG rating of the server. Though if consenting adults want to explore that type of RP, then I'm not one to tell them no either. As long as they do it off the server.

Anyway . .

What the majority of Forgotten Realms fans expect of an Underdark setting is Drow House warfare and subterfuge. Wars between the cities of drow, duergar, and svirfneblin. Wars between each of those cities, beholder communities, and illithid enclaves. All the while there's an undercurrent of secret trade with those enemy factions, because strange magical artefacts equal power and standing.

From what I remember there's only Sshamath on the server. There's no svirfneblin city (only a village without defensive walls). No duergar clan stronghold. There's only a single city, where everyone is expected to get along, because to do otherwise hurt trade. And don't anyone dare start to get zealous about religion, because then the wizard masters of Sshamath will crack down hard on those individuals.

The Surface is much easier to manage in that regard. Because the vast majority of content is player characters against monster characters, with a splash of faction warfare every now and then. Not so in the Underdark of BG, where there effectively are no factions. With (most) everyone living in the same city, there's only really room for spying and infiltration stuff — which require DM oversight!! Everything else is still player characters against monster characters; but in the Underdark every player character IS a monster character due to their race of choice.


If the Underdark is to be an active place, then it needs to play to its lore-wise strengths. Which require DM oversight. Maybe if there was an Underdark Kraak Helzak, and an Underdark Gullykin, then things could start to move in the right direction. But as of right now, most anything that is fitting for the Underdark require DM oversight. Because in the Underdark you spy on friends and enemies alike, and are always ready to stab someone in the back, because they WILL do that to you.

Or at least the Drow will. Duergar and Svirfneblin not so much, yet they're typically not the most sought-after Underdark race to play. In terms of Underdark lore, the Drow are the superstars. While they may be evil, they're very much considered the "team to root for", due to taking centre stage in most of the lore. Duergar and Svirfneblin are the enemies of drow, and each other. They're the orcs and goblins most commonly found in Surface lore. They're the enemy of the protagonist race(s), whom they band together against, when not too busy fighting each other too.


TL;DR:
The vast majority of Underdark lore is focused on the drow race, their wars with other Underdark races, and each other. The latter very much being a spy-vs-spy affair, complete with betrayals, assassinations, back-room deals, and intimidation through reputation. The BG setting doesn't allow for most of this to happen, due to a lack of proper non-drow citadels, proper Lolthian warfare, proper religious zealotry, and the absolute requirement for DM oversight for all the spying and assassination plots against other drow (players).

[edmaster]

My experience with the UD was a Pretty lonely one, you basically have to wait for Other players and DM Attention as well, not one i recommend if you like to find others to role play with.

I think loosening restrictions between both the UD and Surface is a good start

[cosmic ray]

If you are playing a UD-spawned PC, don’t you want or wouldn’t you want the UD to “be alive,” and engaging place to live out your Characters existence?

Are you going to settle for having your UD toon on the Surface, just to have interaction, because this entire world underground is kinda dead (in terms of NPCs and such)?

Sure, restrictions now are OOC restrictions. But at the same time TRAVEL between the Surface and the UD is supposed to be immensely rare and f’n dangerous, while on BGTSCC it’s a walk in the park (and also a journey often taken OOC).

Nonetheless, more Drow known on the Surface would 120% cause a focused effort to eliminate them, all completely IC driven. That is the guaranteed result here. The Dukes are known to have relations with Mag and Soubar, and as well the whole Dragonspear campaign where the Fist had a super presence…how would Drow NOT be reason to muster a Fist + Advemtures wipe out? Hellz…canon Lore has Baldurs Gate regularly beating the crap out of Roaringshore just to make a point.

Players have cause and right to get ATTENTION IN the UD, and THIS should be the focus here, not “how can we let UDers have campfire chats on the regular topside” because players are lonely in The Basement.

Yeah. Agreed.

And there are efforts underway to add to the UD areas the things they are missing, and expand upon the areas there.

I'd be onboard with an expansion of the upper dark as well, as it would lead to more natural exchanges in role play.

But if the UD players are feeling left out of stories and RP, it seems like DMs should be down there DMing rather than being used to police pvp on the surface.

I am not in support of creating additional touch points for pvp, and in the process segregating key epic areas away from those that don't want constant conflict.

Its an area design issue and not one I think is a good idea.

That is a brilliant idea. The Underdark is nearly empty most of the time, so expanding it with even more areas, thus helping dilute the very few players who remain even more, will be a huge boon to make it feel more alive. Make sure that at least half a dozen of those areas are new hubs which you can spawn in directly from the nexus, so that we can ensure no UD character will ever run into any other PC ever again. Damn, why don't I ever have such brilliant ideas? Life ain't fair.

[Planehopper]

That is a brilliant idea. The Underdark is nearly empty most of the time, so expanding it with even more areas, thus helping dilute the very few players who remain even more, will be a huge boon to make it feel more alive. Make sure that at least half a dozen of those areas are new hubs which you can spawn in directly from the nexus, so that we can ensure no UD character will ever run into any other PC ever again. Damn, why don't I ever have such brilliant ideas? Life ain't fair.

It truly isn't. I'm sorry.

So you want to play a hostile +2 ECL race from the UD on the surface, but not in the UD? Half the replies say how the UD needs expansion (and the projects in the works are in tandem with UD players - guess you know more than them), and now when it's offered its a bad idea?

I'll let Tanlaus, Banovitsky, and EC know that we should halt work.

Or not.

[Snarfy]

-The second concern is what worries me the most. If you think the UD is empty now, Imagine how it would be once this proposal takes place. I believe that most - if not all - ud population will be up top and there will be a point that a decision will need to be made whether the UD areas should even be on the server.

This is a pretty legitimate concern.

When I'm on my UD characters, I don't bring them topside. Admittedly, I'm not really motivated to RP much these days, but, if I ever get back into it, I can safely say that the UD would be a lot less appealing to log into if UD activity predominantly migrates top side.

Additionally, any type of "safe zone" that potentially springs up out of this idea will just be another place for all of my surface characters, except maybe one, to avoid(much like how I avoid Soubar). Simply put, it's not my bag, and feels like a watering down of the setting, but if players want to foster and engage in more UD-surface hangouts, they are welcome to it.

[cosmic ray]

That is a brilliant idea. The Underdark is nearly empty most of the time, so expanding it with even more areas, thus helping dilute the very few players who remain even more, will be a huge boon to make it feel more alive. Make sure that at least half a dozen of those areas are new hubs which you can spawn in directly from the nexus, so that we can ensure no UD character will ever run into any other PC ever again. Damn, why don't I ever have such brilliant ideas? Life ain't fair.

It truly isn't. I'm sorry.

So you want to play a hostile +2 ECL race from the UD on the surface, but not in the UD? Half the replies say how the UD needs expansion (and the projects in the works are in tandem with UD players - guess you know more than them), and now when it's offered its a bad idea?

I'll let Tanlaus, Banovitsky, and EC know that we should halt work.

Or not.

BGtSCC suffers from a serious problem in that it has way too many hubs. Not just the underdark, but the surface as well. The module also has too many pointless areas, especially in the underdark with all those nondescript tunnel areas that all look alike and have no real purpose except to make you walk more between point A and point B, as well as making it harder for you to run into others. This was true eight years ago already, and it's only got worse with time.

We learn about solids, liquids and gasses as children in school and the different likelihoods of molecules bumping into each other in each of those states. It's the same principle.