Should we lessen restrictions on the Underdark? [Poll]

[Empoweredfan]

A poll like this is honestly a bad way to measure anything on a forum such as this. With how many people have several accounts to vote with, it is bound to make it so that those that feels the most passionate about this issue can make a false impression about how this is viewed. Be it with alternative accounts, or getting innactive people that have left to come back to vote on this with their accounts to boost the results.

The question should not be how the community feels about the issue, as that only involves those that are focused on this aspect, but rather how a change can affect the community that suddenly might be faced with changes that they find unwelcome or are unprepared for. As it stands today, UD players are not barred from the surface, and can play there with reason and with restrictions. Just as surface players can be in the UD, play there with reason and restrictions. Which just makes it so that you don't get an abundance of either in each setting, which would break immersion for many, and let's face it, probably empty the UD entirely of players.

What is really needed, as I see it, is a way for UD players to play in the UD, without constantly being at each other's throats in a way that might make players stop playing there. Which is up to wiser heads than mine to come up with. And if it is the area distribution that is unfair, it should be a small case to simply make some of the lowerdark areas into underdark areas, thus expanding the UD more.

[JIŘÍ]

I am sorry, what immersion are people talking of?

When i walk my elf around 3 of 5 people she encounters is a tiefling.

Mothers who give brith to tieflings usually die on birth, and it is so hilarious that every third person you encounter is ONE.


I do not count in aasimars, as they are not visible at first look.

Not a single thing supposed to be rare in setting is rare, but as some peopel above mentioned, a chance of running into a drow (be it hostile or friendly encounter) is gonna ruin your immersion.

The more this argument is beaten here the more it feels like a fake one.

The biggest joke is an elf female in heavy armour, wielding greatsword and running on high heels. Immersion? Really? Lets stop playing that fake game

[Steve]

.
Come and get me, Steve.

I appreciate that I have the option to RP on either side!!

[Steve]

And, about the Northern region(s) of the BGTSCC server:

To try and help clear things up, the norther region(s) have always been , since their design and addition, as Lawless Lands, NOT neutral lands, or towns, or Areas.

Why is this distinction important? Because it specifically applies the context of “without Laws,” not without Good & Evil agenda and actions (and Neutral agendas, I guess…but who cares about neutrals, right!?! )

Paladins who wish to tame the lawless are just as rightly present in the north as Drow who would be exiting the Underdark and looking for any locale that would tolerate them (TREASON!!! Oh wait…wrong region. My bad…just can’t help myself).

The “without Laws” part is what was supposed to make the northern region such an interesting and vibrant part of the Server, to contrast and balance BG and all the Towns/Villages south of it, that were already IG. The Lawless North was added to provide a region in which players could vie for control or vie for eliminating control, to act with total freedoms.

In that spirit, it would be rational to also eliminate the OOC laws that have been placed there. But I think many players who are active today have no memory of how it was previously when UD races had more “action” on the Surface. And, how this led to sooooo many complaints to the Staff of griefing, of unfair conflict against X, of complaints of OP Drow hunting down lesser CL PCs and causing players to feel preyed upon (and vice versa, with Drow players feeling “the Server against their Ellistraeen Right to dance freely in the moonlight….).

A lot of Staff headache, believe you me.

Now, personally, I’m all for less restrictions, but ONLY if the playerbase can accept both the IC/OOC outcone. Because their will be both. The IC will be welcome, or hopefully so, but will absolutely being CvC conflict and result in PvP. The OOC will not be welcome, but prepare for it, for others to reject individuals “reasons” and RP, which can have the effect of coming across as unfriendly (and maybe so).

To end, this is why though I like the idea of “fairer” avenues for RP interaction, what I like even more is having more equal investment in both Underdark (upper & mid) as well as the Surface, but separate. Or, maybe some DM led campaigns that let the two touch.

But again, if you are like me and have had 10+ years on BGTSCC, you’d know and remember JUST HOW MANY FAILED EVENTS AND INTERACTIONS have gone on when the two realms were “opened up.” So many complaints, so many quitting players AND DMs. We already have a paradigm where DMs only DM for those they get along with, and there is no mandate that events/campaigns/etc are open and free or requests are fulfilled for the “unliked.”

So as a final contribution to this discussion, I’d say if the playerbase is willling to risk it, go for it. If the cycle can be broken, I’d be amazed AND super pleased.


Subject: THE LAWS OF THE LANDS (IC)

Laws of the Lawless in Soubar

Residents of Soubar generally will not care if combat between beings takes place outside and away from merchant stalls and commerce taking place and does not include area affecting magics or attacks. Fighting is also not permitted inside the only establishment in Soubar, the Winding Way Inn, and Mags has made it abundantly clear that anyone who breaks the peace will be forcibly removed and in some cases, banned from entry.

((As long as pvp takes place between PCs only and without area affecting magics or attacks and the fighting takes place outside and away from the inn, merchant stalls and commerce, you do not need to get DM permission to have pvp take place in Soubar as long as standard server pvp rules are otherwise followed.))

[Empoweredfan]

Taking a single word to butt heads against an argument in it's entirety falls flat in a wider context. I'm sorry that you do not get immersed in the setting JIŘÍ, but with such questions as this, we have to step out of our own point of reference and try to look at the wider picture. Just because we might lack something, does not mean everyone does. And just because we might want something, does not mean that everyone does. And again, just because a question like this is asked in a poll, does not mean that everyone will see it to vote on it. Heck, I'd never have known it to be asked if it didn't cause an uproar on discord (Where I am only some times active). I am willing to bet that there are a lot of players that only focus on the game and won't even know that this question have even been asked. And just because they may not be here, does not mean that they are not active and important parts of the server community. Their views are just as important as those that will see this poll and vote in it. And if we neglect to take those into account, whom is to say that even with an overwhelming 'yes' here, it won't drain the server of players quicker than the UD one that constantly tries to establish itself.

Now, I'm off again, and won't be able to answer anything for at least a few days. And even then, I probably won't. I simply hope that as this is not an argument for or against, but rather a reflection on the poll itself, that some of you take the time to read it and take it into account when going forward in this discussion.

Empo.

[Almarea90]

Everything that roofshadow said +1, i voted yes. Many of the people who also voted yes already brought up points i would have brought up myself. I will say this rule suggestion is the result of IC RP and a reflection of the current state of Soubar and the north and how PC's and NCPs have been bieng portrayed to be interactiong with Drow.I get some people are concerned about seeing the entire UD population just in soubar or in the north grinding, which is just about as likely as a party of ten surfacers going into the upperdark. There are about ten or so active UD players, most of us have multiple UD characters. So in order for the entire UD population we would have to.

1. All be on at the same time.
2. All be on characters that would want to travel to the surface.

We have players all the way from the west coast america to Europe, so we would have to ooc coordinate to make sure we can all be on at the same time just so we can go to the surface and what? Hang out at Soubar just so we can troll a few people? Like what is actually stopping us from doing that right now? Same thing goes for supposedly hanging outside of the entrance to the EDE, like, why? Why would we waste our time trolling a few people who play elves? At most usually there are only 3-4 to of us online at any given time. Everyone who regularily plays in the UD is all already friends with each other, anyone who trolls or acts (p00pie) ooc gets called out because its not like we traditionally have had DM's to monitor the player base for us.

And i know people keep saying 'we are not picking on drow players' 'we are not trolling anyone' 'we are not picking on the UD population' or any other varation of those empty words. And those words are empty platitudes when those same people have suggested we simply delete the UD, turn it into another epic level zone, tell the people who play drow and UD characters to simply play something else. Why is it okay for people to tell other players who choose to play UD characters that their time and effort has no value? So what then, should we retcon all the RP that has been done between the various drow factions the ones in soubar just because some NPC 'would never allow this to happen!'. So what other people get to see that their RP has meaning and can change the server but if you play a drow its irrelevant?

I don't think i should have to explain this but when people cry about 'drow are going to ruin everything' what you are saying is that the ten people who actively play drow will be the people who ruin the server for you. Or are these drow you speak of some other players that none of the current UD player base is aware of? Perhaps NPC drow that the DM's will spawn as impromptu antagonists will ruin your fun? I am not exactly sure whom it is exactly that you speak of that will destroy the immersion and integrity of the server, if someone is doing that please report them to the staff so they can be corrected. Just assuming that the UD population is going to get together to ruin everyone elses day is basically the same as calling everyone who chooses to play there a troll that wants to destroy your fun.

Guess what if you think my time, and the time of my friends is worthless, that we should simply retcon all the RP that has been done between the factions of drow and soubar, that we should just play something else, that we should just get rid of the UD. Then personally I wont waste my time roleplaying with you, there are better things the both of us can be doing that way you dont ever have to worry about a drow ruining your immersion.

THIS.
When I first read this proposal of opening up the north the first thing I thought was: cool more RP. If the first thing that comes to mind when we think of loosening the barriers between UD and surface is "oh no UD gankers"... well I don't think this is healthy at all for the community. I understand that, as they said in my country, the mother of idiots is always with child and the occasional griefer may pop up among honest players and good RPers but this can happen in the surface too.

I think those who can benefit from this proposal are not only the guys of team evil (who really could use some love, as I understand it's not easy at all to play such a character here) but also those of team good/neutral. This can be because of conflict RP but not only that. Believe it or not, not all good guys would chase a drow with torches and pitchforks. Some of us don't even kill the aggressive mobs let alone someone who isn't immediately hostile.
In these two years I had some RP with underdark dwellers. Most of them were reasonable or even friendly and there was a very nice arc where my tiefling grew sympathetic to those underdark dwellers who were outcasts in both worlds (or so they said ). Only one encounter ended up in PvP as the conflict escalated between one of our party members and an hostile drow, but it wasn't by far a gankfest or pvp baiting. It was handled in an OOC polite manner with 0 OOC drama. Even better, this led to an additional RP arc at the end of the encounter where I understand there was a negotiation with other UDers all the while us goodies tried to convince the guy to live a more decent life (bless our hearts).

All this to say that imho the benefit and the RP potential for this change largely surpasses the risk of few malicious elements who might ruin the fun. At the end of the day the UDers are fellow players who are interested in having fun and experiencing quality RP just like us surfacers.

[VDub]

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it! (George Santayana-1905)

Most of you weren't around back then, so it's understandable. The UD was created for a reason. It wasn't just a simple addition. The community was split and the way between made difficult for a reason.

You say that PvP won't be an issue, and for most it won't be. But the OOC blow ups and the OOC conflict over how it happened will be an issue in time. Maybe not at first, but eventually. The DM team will spend a good majority of it's time policing the player-base and not running events as they should be.

I can understand why the DM team thinks this will be a good idea. It will create player conflict and driven RP. Rp that will be a constant on the server, drowning out anything the DM wish to create. I mean, for a DM team that is lazy, I can see the appeal. But I don't think you fully understand the can of worms your opening. Some of you DMs were around back then, you are just choosing to forget. You've already made it a point to me that things can't change over a decade.

Most of you are short-timers. Been here for a fraction of the server History. I hope you know what you're asking for...

[Xorena]

If we talk about improvements to the underdark, in my mind we need to consider a few things.

1. As Roofshadow said, not everything needs to be dark, depressing and purple. underground environs are quite varied and some are beautiful, airy and light. It does not take long to find great examples of beauty underground. Here is one of them with many pictures.

2. Related to 1: Some of the PVE zones feel rushed or minimal. The Drider wilds feels like someone just threw together some caves and added a few spawn points and chests. They are devoid of any decoration. There is a great opportunity for a motivated builder to get creative. Back when I built for another server I wanted to recreate the New Zealand glow caves. It would have been awesome.

3. Part of this has to do with how we treat other players. Consider how your actions affect player motivations (also known as, "just because you know about something doesn't mean you should ruin other people's fun"). Last year I was a member of House Maerinval. We had a cool group of people, and we all wanted to have fun. One of our players had an idea for an event, and we managed to get a DM interested and we were really excited for it. The plot involved raiding the surface, and classic deception and backstabbing to please Lolth. I thought we checked for a sneak, but apparently not well enough. Within days factions on the surface found out about what we were doing and to my knowledge were actively working against us (a group of paladins even traveled to talk with Bregan about it). That single act decimated our guild. This is a problem for evil factions in general but I'm going to restrain myself.

My drow never had a desire to go to the surface. Why would she? What could it possibly offer? Similarly my surface characters have not traveled to the Underdark. Drow are already traveling to the surface now to do business and vice versa like it's just a trip to the mall.

More drow on the surface is going to cause a problem for immersion, and likely more PVP grievances that DMs need to spend their copious spare time on. These OOC flare ups will consume a lot of time and can drain motivations to DM. I'll let the staff decide whether it's worth it.

[Hoihe]

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it! (George Santayana-1905)

Most of you weren't around back then, so it's understandable. The UD was created for a reason. It wasn't just a simple addition. The community was split and the way between made difficult for a reason.

You say that PvP won't be an issue, and for most it won't be. But the OOC blow ups and the OOC conflict over how it happened will be an issue in time. Maybe not at first, but eventually. The DM team will spend a good majority of it's time policing the player-base and not running events as they should be.

I can understand why the DM team thinks this will be a good idea. It will create player conflict and driven RP. Rp that will be a constant on the server, drowning out anything the DM wish to create. I mean, for a DM team that is lazy, I can see the appeal. But I don't think you fully understand the can of worms your opening. Some of you DMs were around back then, you are just choosing to forget. You've already made it a point to me that things can't change over a decade.

Most of you are short-timers. Been here for a fraction of the server History. I hope you know what you're asking for...

On drowning out other RP,

An NWN1 server with open UD-Surface relations can stand as fair testament to that. They have loose PvP rules, and drow pretty much dominate any RP that occurs on the surface between loose PvP and easy movement between the two - be it elven, halfling, free city or amnian city related.

While people may say, "report PvP" - the fact that you need a strong reason to be on the surface...

A) Already doesn't prevent people from RPing as others reported
B) Acts as a strong filter for those who only want to hang around on the surface to stir trouble.

B, again - I feel is underestimated. B allows punishment for cases where PvP rules were technically not broken, but malicious behaviour was clear all the same.

[joleda]

I love how people say that having more Drow on the surface generates more grievances when I’ve personally experienced epic level surfacers hunting down lower level underdarkians in the underdark. I’m not active because the “paladins” chased me away. I’m out of this thread.

[cosmic ray]

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it! (George Santayana-1905)

Most of you weren't around back then, so it's understandable. The UD was created for a reason. It wasn't just a simple addition. The community was split and the way between made difficult for a reason.

You say that PvP won't be an issue, and for most it won't be. But the OOC blow ups and the OOC conflict over how it happened will be an issue in time. Maybe not at first, but eventually. The DM team will spend a good majority of it's time policing the player-base and not running events as they should be.

I can understand why the DM team thinks this will be a good idea. It will create player conflict and driven RP. Rp that will be a constant on the server, drowning out anything the DM wish to create. I mean, for a DM team that is lazy, I can see the appeal. But I don't think you fully understand the can of worms your opening. Some of you DMs were around back then, you are just choosing to forget. You've already made it a point to me that things can't change over a decade.

Most of you are short-timers. Been here for a fraction of the server History. I hope you know what you're asking for...

I find it very disingenuous and even offensive that some people keep comparing the current players of drow characters to a few trolls who played here in 1860 (or was it 1812?), thus indirectly and collectively insulting us as pvp trolls, harassers, griefers, rule-breakers, etc. It's like all drow players are the trolls and everybody else is a victim of them, when, in truth, it is a well known fact that, throughout the history of BGtSCC, the worst trolls have been team good players who have pushed their weight around like school-yard bullies with a superhero complex, on occasion even with DM support to help them raid Sshamath or Darkhold, completely ignoring the NPCs and PCs there (imagine if drow had done that to Baldur's Gate), or do more nefarious things like certain (I stress *certain*; I'm not talking of the DM body as a whole) DMs head hunting players they disliked OOC and banning them for no better reason than that, while giving super powerful items and xp rewards to their friends. If ancient history matters so much, surely some of these people should not enjoy second or third chances many years later either.

Yet it's only the few drow trolls who are remembered and never the few team good or DM trolls, and the bad behaviour of the narcissistic superhero complex trolls is never cited to create blanket rules that punish everyone for the crimes of a few. You see, even the ancient Romans, separeted from us by thousands of years of outstanding intellectual progress, knew that abusus non tollit usum - this is a basic principle of justice.

There is a lot of bad history to dredge up, but is it fair to compare the people playing today to the people playing in 1700 BC? Is it even fair to compare the people who behave properly to the bad apples of today? Those bad apples are everywhere, but it seems that the crimes of bad apples are either blown up or covered up depending on what side they're on.

So please engage the discussion fairly and spare us the thinly veiled insults, fallacies and platitudes.

[VDub]

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it! (George Santayana-1905)

Most of you weren't around back then, so it's understandable. The UD was created for a reason. It wasn't just a simple addition. The community was split and the way between made difficult for a reason.

You say that PvP won't be an issue, and for most it won't be. But the OOC blow ups and the OOC conflict over how it happened will be an issue in time. Maybe not at first, but eventually. The DM team will spend a good majority of it's time policing the player-base and not running events as they should be.

I can understand why the DM team thinks this will be a good idea. It will create player conflict and driven RP. Rp that will be a constant on the server, drowning out anything the DM wish to create. I mean, for a DM team that is lazy, I can see the appeal. But I don't think you fully understand the can of worms your opening. Some of you DMs were around back then, you are just choosing to forget. You've already made it a point to me that things can't change over a decade.

Most of you are short-timers. Been here for a fraction of the server History. I hope you know what you're asking for...

I find it very disingenuous and even offensive that some people keep comparing the current players of drow characters to a few trolls who played here in 1860 (or was it 1812?), thus indirectly and collectively insulting us as pvp trolls, harassers, griefers, rule-breakers, etc. It's like all drow players are the trolls and everybody else is a victim of them, when, in truth, it is a well known fact that, throughout the history of BGtSCC, the worst trolls have been team good players who have pushed their weight around like school-yard bullies with a superhero complex, on occasion even with DM support to help them raid Sshamath or Darkhold, completely ignoring the NPCs and PCs there (imagine if drow had done that to Baldur's Gate), or do more nefarious things like certain (I stress *certain*; I'm not talking of the DM body as a whole) DMs head hunting players they disliked OOC and banning them for no better reason than that, while giving super powerful items and xp rewards to their friends. If ancient history matters so much, surely some of these people should not enjoy second or third chances many years later either.

Yet it's only the few drow trolls who are remembered and never the few team good or DM trolls, and the bad behaviour of the narcissistic superhero complex trolls is never cited to create blanket rules that punish everyone for the crimes of a few. You see, even the ancient Romans, separeted from us by thousands of years of outstanding intellectual progress, knew that abusus non tollit usum - this is a basic principle of justice.

There is a lot of bad history to dredge up, but is it fair to compare the people playing today to the people playing in 1700 BC? Is it even fair to compare the people who behave properly to the bad apples of today? Those bad apples are everywhere, but it seems that the crimes of bad apples are either blown up or covered up depending on what side they're on.

So please engage the discussion fairly and spare us the thinly veiled insults, fallacies and platitudes.

Not once in my post did I point fingers at the drow or the surface. The problem with PvP and OOC blow up that the staff will be forced to deal with goes both ways.

As Joleda stated, the surfacers are just a guilty as the drow are of traveling to the other side to PvP.

What I was saying is that removing the difficulty of the distance between worlds will cause more problems eventually than it will solve. I've seen it. Dealt with it DM side and know the BS that ensues.

There are both good and bad apples on either side. While playing my drow PCs the one constant was that the end game content was surface raids. While playing surfacers, once a drow is spotted, the hunt it on. Is that the content we wish to drown out the server? I hope not.

How about we all just comment on the thread before us. Not on the opinions of others. You'll not sway my thoughts on it, and I'm sure I won't sway yours.

[cosmic ray]

There are both good and bad apples on either side. While playing my drow PCs the one constant was that the end game content was surface raids. While playing surfacers, once a drow is spotted, the hunt it on. Is that the content we wish to drown out the server? I hope not.

No outward force compels people on either side to obsessively behave that way, though. We are all adults and can choose to behave responsibly without going on drow raids of the surface 24/7 or going scouring the hundreds of miles represented by server areas on the first rumour of a drow sighting. Why can't the policy be just handing out temporary bans to people who troll?

Half of the Underdark is currently available for surfacers to adventure in without having their loot or xp blocked. Why can't just the northern wilderness of the surface be added to that group of areas? It's only the lawless wilderness, not Baldur's Gate, Beregost etc. There can be illithids, orcs and werewolves there, but not drow?

[VDub]

There are both good and bad apples on either side. While playing my drow PCs the one constant was that the end game content was surface raids. While playing surfacers, once a drow is spotted, the hunt it on. Is that the content we wish to drown out the server? I hope not.

No outward force compels people on either side to obsessively behave that way, though. We are all adults and can choose to behave responsibly without going on drow raids of the surface 24/7 or going scouring the hundreds of miles represented by server areas on the first rumour of a drow sighting. Why can't the policy be just handing out temporary bans to people who troll?

Half of the Underdark is currently available for surfacers to adventure in without having their loot or xp blocked. Why can't just the northern wilderness of the surface be added to that group of areas? It's only the lawless wilderness, not Baldur's Gate, Beregost etc. There can be illithids, orcs and werewolves there, but not drow?

Aren't drow already accepted in Soubar? I thought that was the case. Soubar has everything that was asked for here. A campfire, a tavern and Inn, a place for the baddies and drow to interact.

I understand that nobody is compelled to behave that way, yet we all play on a server that leans heavily toward powerbuilding. A good majority that is more concerned with mechanics than actual RP. Do you not think that they will use this opportunity to "test" builds against each other with the thinly veiled guise of RP? I would hope that isn't the case, yet when you look at humanity as a whole, I'm not optimistic.

I agree that it isn't fair that the surface has more chances for loot than below. Why not have more loot nodes added then? Why is the surface so needed by the drow community? I'm not saying that drow should never venture to the surface. I'm saying that it shouldn't be the norm on an RP server that drow are constantly present.

We will have to agree to disagree, Cosmic. Opinions are like (hero). Everyone has them.

[cosmic ray]

There are both good and bad apples on either side. While playing my drow PCs the one constant was that the end game content was surface raids. While playing surfacers, once a drow is spotted, the hunt it on. Is that the content we wish to drown out the server? I hope not.

No outward force compels people on either side to obsessively behave that way, though. We are all adults and can choose to behave responsibly without going on drow raids of the surface 24/7 or going scouring the hundreds of miles represented by server areas on the first rumour of a drow sighting. Why can't the policy be just handing out temporary bans to people who troll?

Half of the Underdark is currently available for surfacers to adventure in without having their loot or xp blocked. Why can't just the northern wilderness of the surface be added to that group of areas? It's only the lawless wilderness, not Baldur's Gate, Beregost etc. There can be illithids, orcs and werewolves there, but not drow?

Aren't drow already accepted in Soubar? I thought that was the case. Soubar has everything that was asked for here. A campfire, a tavern and Inn, a place for the baddies and drow to interact.

I understand that nobody is compelled to behave that way, yet we all play on a server that leans heavily toward powerbuilding. A good majority that is more concerned with mechanics than actual RP. Do you not think that they will use this opportunity to "test" builds against each other with the thinly veiled guise of RP? I would hope that isn't the case, yet when you look at humanity as a whole, I'm not optimistic.

I agree that it isn't fair that the surface has more chances for loot than below. Why not have more loot nodes added then? Why is the surface so needed by the drow community? I'm not saying that drow should never venture to the surface. I'm saying that it shouldn't be the norm on an RP server that drow are constantly present.

We will have to agree to disagree, Cosmic. Opinions are like (hero). Everyone has them.

Underdark players need some surface areas for joint surface/underdark adventuring as badly as surface players need some underdark aras for joint surface/underdark adventuring. One of these exists, but the other does not. The question you ask me, I can also ask you.

Regarding rule breaking, people already get banned for other crimes. Do you think I could make the argument that "people like the BGtSCC PW to roleplay on, but some people use this as a platform for OOC sexual harassment. We should take down this PW and all others like it because it's just too much of a bother to deal with rule breakers"?

Regarding the difference in dungeon density on both sides, that is a good point you bring up and I agree with you there. However, let me tell you this: as recently as this month, I've seen certain people on the forum, who usually argue against the drow side, suggest that devs should take from the limited number of UD dungeons to give over to surfacers, so even here the usual suspects try to shaft underdark players.

I have been thinking about a suggestion for improving the underdark on this front for a while now, but I have been hesitant to post it because when I have made simpler, smaller scale suggestions, a few people seemed to be having like panic attacks or something (this is a joke; moderators, please relax ). My suggestion, in a nutshell, would be: fewer pointless tunnel travel areas, more dungeons, especially epic ones. And DEFINITELY fewer hubs.