Brew Potion Feat and Master Alchemist Brew Feats

[Ashenie]

Hello there!

I wished to ask about Brew Potion Feat and Master Alchemist Brew Feat.
Before last update, brew potion feat allowed to craft potions that could be used on other characters. This great feature allowed me and others to spend hours of work creating herbs and preparations of various sorts, and roleplaying them with mechanical effects. It was a long work to write proper descriptions, make researches about forgotten realms herbs, and brew them accordingly. It was also a lot of gold. It was a lot of fun to use them all! Some of us even shared recipies and herbs, and it was great to have the ingame item to remind that.

Now, brew potion feat and Master Alchemist Brew share the same -script ? - pattern, that gives the message "You clumsily drop and loose the elixir when trying to feed it to someone else". It means that part of the herbs we made with the previous version of the brew potion feat will not be usable in the same way, and for some, they were specifically designed for this.

So I had a few questions regarding this change :

1) Is there a particular reason that we would need to restrict the potions and elixirs so they can't be used on someone else?
On this matter, I think it may provide great role-played scenes and offer niches roles to characters more dedicated to support in combat. In addition, the current set of things invites more to sell to give those potions to people who will use them. So in terms of pure mechanical effects, it's about the same. From my perspective as player, it seems easier to have a second character crating and giving/selling those potions and elixirs, while going for something else that would cost less feats and skills with a main character. It makes those character less active.

2) If there is such reason, could it be fair to add a feat to be able to use them on someone else?
It would then cost a feat to do so. I am not good about balance, so this is more a question than a request.

3) Do scribe scrolls share the same kind of restrictions?

Overall, I just wish to understand the reason behind this change since it has impacted one of the biggest part of the time I spend on the game. If it is not possible to change it due to balance issues or anything else, I would understand and find other ways around.

Thanks for reading,

Ashenie

[Kitunenotsume]

I would like to support this inquiry.

As noted by Ashenie, previously Potions could be used on their normal targets, while Elixirs could only be personally imbibed.
This did not seem like an unreasonable division to me, as elixirs have negative side-effects, and are far more potent, but potions continued to have the same utility prescribed to them from P&P:

A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature’s throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.

Source: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/p ... ndOils.htm

Currently, however, no potion nor elixir can be used on non-self targets, returning the line referencing elixirs and being clumsy regardless of combat state.


Personally, I would be content with a reversion to the previous circumstance, or the act of using a potion or elixir on someone else be enforced as a full round action. I would not be particularly supportive of the idea of permitting such utility only as a feat unless Master Alchemist received the feat as part of the class, encouraging said class as a more party-oriented field-support role rather than just sitting in town with a store.

Either of these would permit the continued RP of applying salves and prescribing tinctures to allies that we had previously.
If enabled for elixirs, it may also permit the use of Raise Dead elixirs to be used to revive fallen comrades - which can be made but due to targeting restrictions will never work.

[yyj]

Agree, I don't see why targets should be limited. It's not OP.

[Endelyon]

To give some clarification:

This was reworked to close a loophole that allowed people to target other characters with MA elixirs and bypass the toxicity limit since the toxicity went to the alchemist instead, who was inevitably immune. We're in internal discussions about this and the current path of action is undecided, if it does come back (which is still up in the air) it will likely be with the caveat that toxicity is still respected even when being "fed" an elixir by a Master Alchemist, limiting them to only ever having two elixir effects at once without consequences even if those two effects come from another player.

[Kitunenotsume]

While that is a potential exploit with Elixirs, and had been existing code preventing the use of Elixirs on others, the initial question was regarding why it suddenly applies to Potions as well, as this was not the case last week.

[Endelyon]

While that is a potential exploit with Elixirs, and had been existing code preventing the use of Elixirs on others, the initial question was regarding why it suddenly applies to Potions as well, as this was not the case last week.

I'm not sure that was the initial question. Previously there was a way to use elixirs on others if you split them into stacks of one, it was not prevented.

The OP also used the phrase "potions and elixirs" in every aspect of their post, so I'm assuming their concern is on both. We may end up restoring that behavior though for regular potions too, we're weighing the possibilities and consequences of each aspect currently.

[Endelyon]

After speaking with my devs it seems like no change was made to regular potions at all. If there was a non-MA potion that was targetable before, it's still targetable now.

So this change seems to only encompass master alchemist elixirs and nothing else.

Can you give an example of a regular potion that was targetable before but isn't now so we can look into it further?

EDIT: It looks like our brew potions may be using the same blueprint as master alchemist elixirs, so this indeed may be the case that these items were affected as well. I'm not 100% sure that that behavior was intended for these potions though, and this may have been the result of sloppy code or a bug. This probably won't get a definitive answer right away but we've flagged it for further discussion.

[Ewe]

For a bit of clarity:

There was a bug fixed for elixirs that was causing them to lose their Master Alchemist CL, and made them default to their lowest possible CL. This caused much strife to MA players.

The same bug caused potions and elixirs to not be flagged as alchemical creations. An elixir would lose its CL and alchemical creation flag by splitting a stack, thereby losing both its CL and also bypassing the targeting other block.

Indirectly, as result of this fix, a check for trying to feed alchemical creations to others was now working. So you see, it was a check that was always in the code but was not working correctly because these items weren't having their flags and CLs being set and saved correctly, or under some circumstances were losing these CLs and flags afterwards.

The future direction of this, as Endelyon wrote, is still under discussion.

[DaloLorn]

Interestingly, I didn't know you could even try to use crafted potions/elixirs on other people. The purchased/looted potions are all self-targeting, as far as I'm aware...

[Kitunenotsume]

The OP also used the phrase "potions and elixirs" in every aspect of their post, so I'm assuming their concern is on both. We may end up restoring that behavior though for regular potions too, we're weighing the possibilities and consequences of each aspect currently.

My interpretation was that the first paragraph of the OP refers specifically to items created using Brew Potion, and in the second paragraph explains that they now act completely like elixirs when used. By my experiments, however, potions can still be renamed, unlike Elixirs. Both can receive Description changes.
However, I shall leave it to Ashenie to clarify if required.

EDIT: It looks like our brew potions may be using the same blueprint as master alchemist elixirs, so this indeed may be the case that these items were affected as well. I'm not 100% sure that that behavior was intended for these potions though, and this may have been the result of sloppy code or a bug. This probably won't get a definitive answer right away but we've flagged it for further discussion.

Indirectly, as result of this fix, a check for trying to feed alchemical creations to others was now working. So you see, it was a check that was always in the code but was not working correctly because these items weren't having their flags and CLs being set and saved correctly, or under some circumstances were losing these CLs and flags afterwards.

So far, yes, every brewed potion (separate from elixirs) I have tested is affected. I usually kept my Elixirs stacked so I was not actually aware of the now-closed issue and always saw the failure message when attempted. However this limitation regarding the "use on others" check may never have been applied to Brewed Potions prior to the change last week. I appreciate and understand that it is not necessarily a quick resolution to conclude intention going forward. I strongly support the work you have done in closing what is clearly an exploit on the Elixirs, but would ask that any decision keep in mind that the functionality of potions has been regarded as functionality as outlined above, as the distinction between the two categories of consumables appeared intentional.


As to your comment DaloLorn, brewed potions have been handled quite differently than systematically generated potions. Potions from stores or loot tables use the iprp_spells.2da to reference their CL and effects, while brewed potions and elixirs have relied on scripts to check their CL and spell-level, so haven't (to my knowledge) been capable of using the standard "drink potion" functionality. They can also have different prices in stores and stuff as a result (but nothing remotely profitable [/shrug] Not that it should be.)

[Ashenie]

Hello there!

Thank you very much for clarifications and for the work and attention around potions and elixirs.

My original post refered about the change to brew potion feat for regular potions. I also wished to inquire about elixirs to understand the restrictions so the answers were great, thank you!

While I understand you will need to discuss it further, is there anything you need from us, players, to help you? Either feedbacks, testing, or anything else?

If I can ask, what would then be the difference between potions and scrolls in terms of gameplay? You could have the elixirs limited to two active effects, but still use scrolls to add other spell effects on your character without suffering toxicity? Or is there something I don't see there?

I look forward to see your decision about this matter,

Cheers!

Ashenie

[DaloLorn]

Potions/elixirs don't need UMD/caster levels to consume. Scrolls do.

[Kitunenotsume]

If I can ask, what would then be the difference between potions and scrolls in terms of gameplay? You could have the elixirs limited to two active effects, but still use scrolls to add other spell effects on your character without suffering toxicity? Or is there something I don't see there?

I have previously a posted a descriptive breakdown of what I see as the separation between elixirs, scrolls, and wands [here], but I could expand on a prescriptive breakdown to include potions, if my perspective on the matter would be of interest.

In regards to comparing potions to scrolls specifically, we have:

Potions:
+ Used by anyone
+ Select common potions available cheaply from NPC vendors
+ Production requires only one feat
+ Can be renamed
- CL 15 cap
- 10/lb stack
- Limit 3rd level spells
- Spell must be self-target capable
- Higher relative production costs if not available from NPCs (30 x CL x SL)

Scrolls:
+ Up to 9th level spells (unless the spell can't be scribed)
+ any spell target
+ Available from vendors
+ Moderate production cost (relative) (25 x CL x SL)
+ Production requires only one feat (and is free to wizards)
+ Can be renamed
- CL 15 cap
- 10/lb stack
- UMD requirement (DC 25 for level 0), bypassed with matching caster levels

Elixirs:
+ Used by anyone
+ Select common potions available cheaply from NPC vendors (See Heal, Ghero, etc)
+ CL 30 cap
- Low relative production costs if not available from NPCs (20 x CL x SL), Cost can be applied to potions. (High compared to Wands)
+/- Limit 7th level spells
- 10/lb stack
- Toxicity system (Unexplained system)
- Spell must be self-target capable
- Production requires 3 feats and 3-5 PRC levels
- Cannot be renamed

Addendum: Regarding Ewe's comment below - We understand the need and greatly appreciate your resolving these longstanding bugs for us. The resolution of clear bugs I do not think is in dispute, though the future of the class and consumable mechanics is clearly on the table.
However, I suspect I am not alone among those of us with MA invested for the character concept that we would appreciate being privy-to or included in any discussions on adjustments to the major mechanical functions of how our characters play. Thank you for your efforts and consideration.

[Ewe]

There's currently other issues in the potion, scroll, and elixir system.

Potions and scrolls can currently (and have been for a very long time) lose their CL when crafted after splitting the stack. After losing their CL set at time of creation it defaults down to a base game (2da values) fail safe lowest possible CL for that spell and may not be readily obvious to the imbiber that they are drinking a much lower CL potion than is written on the item description.

This is particularly harmful to crafters who create these items, and then naturally unstack them to sell them in smaller quantities now selling unbeknownst to them and the buyer a lemon.

We addressed the CL issue for elixirs. It's not an intuitive bug, as you cannot see the CL changing as you split/merge stacks. And when using a scroll or potion you have no idea what the actual CL is at time of firing. So you'd have to use specific spells and do a bunch of math and try and figure it out which isn't really obvious to most players.

There's some serious flaws in the code base around crafted stackable items and their state. We were just trying to fix some of these bugs. Some of the side effects of fixing these bugs are still under discussion there's not much else to say at this time.


Update: The bugfix actually fixed CL for both MA Elixirs and regular brewed potions. Scrolls are the only remaining craftables that may be losing CL.

[Kitunenotsume]

A side effect I have recently observed here is that potions crafted using Brew Potion appear to trigger Elixir Toxicity dialogues.