Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2021)

[Svabodnik]

Yeah, because a 30 Fighter PC with 30 Tumble is much more dangerous than a 26 Fighter/4 Rogue...

But a 30 WISmonk with full UMD, or a 30 dragondruid with full UMD and Tumble, become a lot more potent than ones without. Fighter is a terrible example since their last unique benefit (Weapon Supremacy) can be reached at 18, while most with heavy Fighter progressions leave it at 12 for access to a melee damage-type Melee Mastery and potentially Greater/Epic Weapon Specialization. After that point, if you enjoy a feat every even level, Divine Champion readily beats it out. Other classes, however, benefit a lot more from a pure progression, or a focused progression towards a particular character aspect (like CL for Wizards). This would limit their ability to dip into alternatives.

If a character focuses their training in certain skills outside the confines of their class selection, that's could have already been represented in-game with the option of leveling those skills Cross Class. God only knows how much of my Vault is filled with UMD 16/33 characters.

EDIT: With double-checking it, out of the 11 that are at 30, seems that's all of them.

[Yugo]

The big problem i also have with this is playing spies relying on hide,move silently build will be rendered useless if everyone can max spot + clairvoyance wands + greater heroism potions.

Just with that 30 + greater elixir 6 + 10 = Base 46 on... everyone wishing it... so i would need at least 66 point in hide to be efficient? Peobably more since htose with equipment will bust 80's skill point?

Will discourage any stealth concept to even RP being competent without godly equipment?

It changes ALOT of possible concepts.


I think it will refrain so many aspect of RP in many mechanical game hindrance?
Again.... guess i am just used to suck anyway in builds and accepting it but still... i still think the exceptions made before hand should be respected to avoid even more game breaking builds. But that's me.

Some may Argue Stats aren't what makes RP.... but opening such a pandora's will make the server look more like a grindfest than it's RP original purpose?
Again...

We'll see... I foresee alot of monstrous builds emerging up.

[Bobthehero]

well adios uniqueness.....all fighter will because mages with wands.....lv 9 scrolls.... and imbibing elixirs...

As if that's not already case. UMD should be removed, along with pots and wands, but they're far too ingrained in the game for that, unfortunately.

[Svabodnik]

well adios uniqueness.....all fighter will because mages with wands.....lv 9 scrolls.... and imbibing elixirs...

As if that's not already case. UMD should be removed, along with pots and wands, but they're far too ingrained in the game for that, unfortunately.

Unless you're of the "watch the city burn" mentality, expanding the prevalence of, or lessening the restrictions surrounding, a potent ability just adds more fuel to the fire.

[Rhifox]

Unless you're of the "watch the city burn" mentality, expanding the prevalence of, or lessening the restrictions surrounding, a potent ability just adds more fuel to the fire.

+1

[matelener]

There are hundreds of powerbuilds that do have access to these skills for free, in addition to some other juicy stuff from dips. Personally, I'd almost never waste a feat on UMD (12 is enough). Tumble or Heal, yes, but it's nothing OP. The idea that maxing Spot via cosmo will somehow break the game, is rather funny to me.

[Endelyon]

As already mentioned, there is nothing possible through these additions that isn't already possible through strategic multiclassing and class dipping. Doesn't 80% of characters having a 3 level rogue dip also devalue rogue?

[DaloLorn]

well adios uniqueness.....all fighter will because mages with wands.....lv 9 scrolls.... and imbibing elixirs...

As if that's not already case. UMD should be removed, along with pots and wands, but they're far too ingrained in the game for that, unfortunately.

Unless you're of the "watch the city burn" mentality, expanding the prevalence of, or lessening the restrictions surrounding, a potent ability just adds more fuel to the fire.

In all fairness, the added fuel might make the fire too big to keep ignoring. UMD's a pretty scary fire, but it doesn't seem to be quite big enough to send the whole fire brigade at it yet.

As already mentioned, there is nothing possible through these additions that isn't already possible through strategic multiclassing and class dipping. Doesn't 80% of characters having a 3 level rogue dip also devalue rogue?

The monk and druid examples do concern me. My first thought when considering this was aimed at new PRC combinations that might not have been as easily accessible before; I hadn't considered that some classes gain a good deal of power from avoiding multiclassing.

[Svabodnik]

One out of four limited class options (something I've personally butted heads with beforehand) the reason the "powerbuilding" splits to access the skills exited beforehand is to usually sacrifice something for the benefits they could gain. That's unlike the aforementioned Wizard who can focus the entire build selection around progressing CL/DC (and with their INT modifier can benefit the most from skill ranks into UMD or Tumble), or pure Monk builds (in order to benefit the most from their unarmed damage and SR progression), or mostly pure Druid builds (whose maximum benefit in Dragon Shape are limited to 28 levels, which excludes any dips with 3B20). There are likely countless others that don't come to mind currently, and for the combinations mentioned above the feat selection can grow rather overabundant rather than starved, opening the door for a pure increase in ability.

12 UMD assumes you'll never be hit by a skill-reduction debuff, which would push you under the breakpoint of being able to use your wands or equipped items. Given that Vault skellybards have Curse Song, that's not a guarantee. I have at least a couple failed runs to my name for not considering this and losing a round's worth of actions with reapplying a Lesser Restoration potion. If you actually factor in the risk of facing other players, that's definitely not a guarantee.

That being said, I would propose that the 100% RCR limit gets extended for another week or two, since I think I need to rebuild a few characters with the recent additions and the time I am given.

[YYA]

The monk and druid examples do concern me. My first thought when considering this was aimed at new PRC combinations that might not have been as easily accessible before; I hadn't considered that some classes gain a good deal of power from avoiding multiclassing.

Yes and no. With some of the changes to the server, such as the Self-Concealment one, a dexterity based human Ranger 30 could grab Self-Concealment 30% by taking "Extra Skill: Tumble" feat. The same dexterity based ranger could grab 20% Self-Concealment as a Ranger 21/Assassin 9, or the exact same 30% as a Ranger 27/Rogue or Shadowdancer 3. Rogue gives access to way more skills and other abilities, while Shadowdancer gives access to Hide In Plain Sight everywhere, which in turn allows our Ranger to kite enemies wherever he goes.

And generally speaking, "Extra Skill: Heal" can be a great boon to any non-spellcasting class as the maxed out Heal skill makes the "Regeneration" items a little bit less of a must have attribute on cloaks and weapons. It doesn't mean that those items are not good to have, it just means that you do not necessarily have to have them, unless you are planning on soloing the very toughest boss monsters this server has to offer. Maxed out Heal skill is just a nice thing to have.

[DaloLorn]

That's unlike the aforementioned Wizard who can focus the entire build selection around progressing CL/DC (and with their INT modifier can benefit the most from skill ranks into UMD or Tumble)

The wizard can take a Rogue dip (and even progress into Arcane Trickster for extra sneak attacks and easier Tumble progression!) and make up the difference with Practiced Spellcaster and careful skill/level management. Caili's done this, and the only reason she won't hit CL30 is that she's also taken a Shadowdancer dip for HiPS. TBH, I somewhat question the importance of full UMD on an arcanist, considering most of the important divine things I can think of can be handled by wands or potions; Ilhara only picked up a dozen ranks for wands and such, Dae's only grabbing about a dozen ranks herself (despite being a rogue!), and Caili's going full-UMD for largely thematic reasons.

Generally, when I see people using UMD, it's either to bypass alignment/class restrictions with ~12 UMD (mostly wands, but not always), or to use high-level arcane spells like Disjunctions and Bigbies with as much UMD as they can get.

pure Monk builds (in order to benefit the most from their unarmed damage and SR progression), or mostly pure Druid builds (whose maximum benefit in Dragon Shape are limited to 28 levels, which excludes any dips with 3B20).

These two worry me the most, yeah. Access to extra epic bonus feats from pure classes may also be a concern, TBH, and I definitely understand the concern that making an effective sneak will become that much harder with easier access to Spot/Listen.

12 UMD assumes you'll never be hit by a skill-reduction debuff, which would push you under the breakpoint of being able to use your wands or equipped items. Given that Vault skellybards have Curse Song, that's not a guarantee. I have at least a couple failed runs to my name for not considering this and losing a round's worth of actions with reapplying a Lesser Restoration potion. If you actually factor in the risk of facing other players, that's definitely not a guarantee.

The skill-reduction debuff assumes you won't be under the effect of Greater Heroism (among other things).

Besides which, if you expect to need to reapply wands or unequip/reequip UMD-locked items during combat (Curse Songs don't last very long, after all), then failing to plan around that is on you.

The monk and druid examples do concern me. My first thought when considering this was aimed at new PRC combinations that might not have been as easily accessible before; I hadn't considered that some classes gain a good deal of power from avoiding multiclassing.

Yes and no. With some of the changes to the server, such as the Self-Concealment one, a dexterity based human Ranger 30 could grab Self-Concealment 30% by taking "Extra Skill: Tumble" feat. The same dexterity based ranger could grab 20% Self-Concealment as a Ranger 21/Assassin 9, or the exact same 30% as a Ranger 27/Rogue or Shadowdancer 3. Rogue gives access to way more skills and other abilities, while Shadowdancer gives access to Hide In Plain Sight everywhere, which in turn allows our Ranger to kite enemies wherever he goes.

And generally speaking, "Extra Skill: Heal" can be a great boon to any non-spellcasting class as the maxed out Heal skill makes the "Regeneration" items a little bit less of a must have attribute on cloaks and weapons. It doesn't mean that those items are not good to have, it just means that you do not necessarily have to have them, unless you are planning on soloing the very toughest boss monsters this server has to offer. Maxed out Heal skill is just a nice thing to have.

... It's odd that rangers don't get Tumble...

But by your own admission, an SD3 or Rogue3 dip can get the same amount of Self-Concealment (and I cannot, offhand, figure out why the Ranger/Assassin build wouldn't...) with plenty of other goodies on top. ES: Heal would be less of a concern, IMO, if healing kits (and access to healing, in general) weren't busted... but at least it is slightly mitigated by weighing a ton more than an equivalent supply of Heal potions.

[YYA]

(and I cannot, offhand, figure out why the Ranger/Assassin build wouldn't...)

It is a matter of available feats and skill rank requirements, Self-Concealment still requires 30 in Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble. The other build gets Ranger Bonus feats that could be used to grab additional 10% Percent of Self-Concealment.

40% Self-Concealment is only possible with something like Fighter 24 with truly epic Fighter Bonus feats, or with those pre-epic Rogue 10-19 Bonus Feats. (Rogue 10 gets usually spent on Crippling Strike, so in practice you must have something 16-19 levels of Rogue in the build.

[Svabodnik]

[...]The wizard can take a Rogue dip (and even progress into Arcane Trickster for extra sneak attacks and easier Tumble progression!) and make up the difference with Practiced Spellcaster and careful skill/level management. Caili's done this, and the only reason she won't hit CL30 is that she's also taken a Shadowdancer dip for HiPS.[...]

Amusingly enough, when this popped up I was in the process of rebuilding a Wiz 5/Arcane Scholar 10/Thaum 5/Archmage 10. He had a free feat at 18 (all class pre-reqs were met, the 4 class limit was hit, and a boatload of free skill ranks were devoted to "RP skills"), well before the +3 Great Intelligence feats he'd gain after the cusp of level 21. Beckon the Frozen was off the table, since Stone Peaks churns out fire damage. I was seriously considering Improved Familiar. However, being able to crank out Regenerate scrolls on the summons from UMD scroll use, or using Heal while Invis, definitely tossed a wrench in the works of my plan. Still not sure what would be the best option.

A change to the mechanics of the game, even if intended to "benefit RP", would mostly be taken advantage of those mindful of the change in mechanics and then adjust to include that into their build.

[DaloLorn]

(and I cannot, offhand, figure out why the Ranger/Assassin build wouldn't...)

It is a matter of available feats and skill rank requirements, Self-Concealment still requires 30 in Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble. The other build gets Ranger Bonus feats that could be used to grab additional 10% Percent of Self-Concealment.

40% Self-Concealment is only possible with something like Fighter 24 with truly epic Fighter Bonus feats, or with those pre-epic Rogue 10-19 Bonus Feats. (Rogue 10 gets usually spent on Crippling Strike, so in practice you must have something 16-19 levels of Rogue in the build.

Oh yeah, bonus feats. Right.

[...]The wizard can take a Rogue dip (and even progress into Arcane Trickster for extra sneak attacks and easier Tumble progression!) and make up the difference with Practiced Spellcaster and careful skill/level management. Caili's done this, and the only reason she won't hit CL30 is that she's also taken a Shadowdancer dip for HiPS.[...]

Amusingly enough, when this popped up I was in the process of rebuilding a Wiz 5/Arcane Scholar 10/Thaum 5/Archmage 10. He had a free feat at 18 (all class pre-reqs were met, the 4 class limit was hit, and a boatload of free skill ranks were devoted to "RP skills"), well before the +3 Great Intelligence feats he'd gain after the cusp of level 21. Beckon the Frozen was off the table, since Stone Peaks churns out fire damage. I was seriously considering Improved Familiar. However, being able to crank out Regenerate scrolls on the summons from UMD scroll use, or using Heal while Invis, definitely tossed a wrench in the works of my plan. Still not sure what would be the best option.

A change to the mechanics of the game, even if intended to "benefit RP", would mostly be taken advantage of those mindful of the change in mechanics and then adjust to include that into their build.

... Okay, I guess there is a sane use case for divine UMD after all. (Though not one that my arcanists would often have to deal with! )

As to ES:Heal, I maintain that the Heal skill itself is broken, regardless of Extra Skill. In that respect, it's not unlike ES:UMD - highlighting a longstanding issue with the game, but not creating an issue in and of itself.

[Young Werther]

A paladin/divine seeker/nwn9/maa feinter cosmo bluffer approaches u. Wyd?