My shifter videos

[mrm3ntalist]

TBH, I think the bigger issue is that there's no reason why a powerbuilder wouldn't want to grab the DR/regen feats. You don't need to take STR/DEX/CON because you're constantly shifted

I do not understand why you mix powerbuilding here... If you make a melee fighter are you going to max wisdom, unless it is some kind of a monk? If you make a DC caster are you going to max STR or DEX? It is just common sense. The shifter is not a spell casting prc, so no need to max casting stats. STR and DEX are not important like you said because of the forms. So CON and INT are the obvious choices. It has nothing to do with powerbuilding.

With that said, there is no melee build ( non casters ) that get permanent 10DR and 10Regen, on top of any vamp regen one can get. It was very straight forward to solo all bosses with the shifter PRC, minimal equipment and no umd... This is not powerbuilding, just one OP PRC... until CotC gets released...

[DaloLorn]

I'm mixing in powerbuilding because that is the only compelling reason to favor CON over any other attribute on a shifter. You could be decent with almost any stat spread, because it's not a class that really depends on your ability scores... but there's only one stat that will lead you to a significant performance gain, and only if you take it with the express purpose of taking the epic CON feats.

[Steve]

There’s a reason they call it gimping, and not non-powerbuilding.

[mrm3ntalist]

I'm mixing in powerbuilding because that is the only compelling reason to favor CON over any other attribute on a shifter. You could be decent with almost any stat spread, because it's not a class that really depends on your ability scores... but there's only one stat that will lead you to a significant performance gain, and only if you take it with the express purpose of taking the epic CON feats.

Let’s say that you are correct. Even if that is the case and CON is the main attribute you have to take, one does not need to max it to extreme, such as wizards with int, sorcs with cha, Druids with wis, str fighters with STR etc. you only need 23 con which allows you to distribute the other stats more freely. This is not powerbuilding.

[YYA]

Yes and no, I would say it kind of depends on whether or not you have a free level 30 RCR into another character or not, and that is simply because if you do not... well, you do have far greater incentive to reach that 23 constitution as soon as possible to get those constitution based feats as soon as possible. Where as if you can just level up a level 30 RCR character, well, you can afford raise your other base ability scores much higher and simply because you do not have to grind those levels.

[DaloLorn]

There’s a reason they call it gimping, and not non-powerbuilding.

Is it gimping when a 20-level shifter is already on par with a number of other strong builds by default? Rinn's epic feats consist almost exclusively of fiendish heritage feats (I couldn't squeeze them in any earlier, and my fifth epic feat is going to be one of ICE, Steadfast Determination, or NH), and I still expect to put up a respectable fight against most things on the server when I get to that point. Probably not "solo a boss" respectable, but certainly "reach the boss" respectable. Easily capable of bloodying the nose of most "gimped" builds I've seen.

[Steve]

Power building is when a player chooses mechanical benefits over non-mechanical benefits. In a way then, almost all builds are power builds, since by their nature, they require increasing power in order to actually utilize their characteristics, their feats: Curse Song is an example where one MUST increase level and Perform skill (power) to make use of the feat. Or, where a player must take X,Y,X powerful feats to unlock a powerful PrC—its not like one has the option to take Skill Focus: Petting Kittens feat to unlock Blackguard.

Again, by default, the D&D game requires players to power build.

Power builders, as a type of player, would be that person or persons who makes it a point to squeeze every bit of possible mechanical power out of a build, and often at the expense of every single non-mechanical power building aspect. Example: we all know 6 CHA isn’t going to make your PC friends, yet the player hides this fact and still goes out to lead a guild through persuasion and will.

Gimping is much like M3nt said: you make a Sorcerer but make INT. Essentially, a player intentionally goes against the “grain” of any particular Class/PrC/Build.

Sure, there a Classes that are so good and powerful from the outset, it is actually A CHALLENGE to make them suck. That is why gimping can be an art!!

And, there a some Classes/PrCs that are so good they allow a player to not power build and STILL end up with a powerful build…while there simultaneously exist Builds/PrCs that if one doesn’t consciously power build, the player is actually miserable experiencing the game.

I’d say that, and not to speak for him, that M3nt’s point here is that Shifter, and eventually Champion of Corellon, have skewed the power balance between Class/PrC mechanics. And I don’t disagree with him, but at the same time, I also enjoy rofflestomping content with very little need for investment in gear and tactics.

[DaloLorn]

Okay then, let's use "min-maxing" instead of "powerbuilding". You're arguing semantics, but my point remains: Shifters are good by default, but as far as I can tell, they don't break the game (or have too much room for improvement, really, which is a separate issue ) until you min-max into the epic CON feats. The answer to that shouldn't be a blanket nerf to all Shifters, it should be a targeted nerf at the offending combination of Shifter shapes (... and arguably shapeshifting in general...) and epic DR/regen.

Nerfing all the builds just to bring the best one down to a sane level will only ensure that no sane person tries to build anything except the best one. Now, sometimes there's no viable alternative; sometimes you have to choose between the blanket nerf and no nerf. Here, though, we know exactly how we can narrow the gap between the regular players and the min-maxers.

[Steve]

Well, I’m not entirely convinced Shifter PrC is more powerful than a Paladin/Divinate build. Or a Bard 26/Rogue 4 build. Or a TWF STR Ranger 30.

In each instance, one builds for power, and yet even if one doesn’t min/max, the basic classes are inherently powerful when it comes to content (though some may rely on Gear more than others).

[DaloLorn]

Well, I’m not entirely convinced Shifter PrC is more powerful than a Paladin/Divinate build. Or a Bard 26/Rogue 4 build. Or a TWF STR Ranger 30.

In each instance, one builds for power, and yet even if one doesn’t min/max, the basic classes are inherently powerful when it comes to content (though some may rely on Gear more than others).

I find it entirely believable that a Shifter20/DC4/X6 build with all the epic CON feats could be potent enough to challenge or exceed the builds you listed. (Though I find it less believable that they could challenge whatever the hell Grizk is! )

What I don't find believable is M3nt's assertion that this is because the PRC is innately (or uniquely!) capable of reaching gamebreaking power levels without going down a specific build path, with minor variations. (Like maybe sacrificing one epic DR/regen feat to get Evasion via a Rogue, Monk, or Water Cleric dip?) Nor do I find it believable that nerfing the PRC across the board is the only or best way of bringing it back in line.

[Steve]

Okay. But you also can't justify to "block" a build from being made to have max CON and both full lines of Epic DR and Fast Healing!

Or, maybe what you're getting at and I keep overlooking is that Shifter should have MORE options or paths for power, than just the high CON + Epic DR 9/- + Fast Healing III + Evasion/Expose Weakness. However, ANY build that takes that path, will be game breaking!

Dwarven Defender + 3 Epic DR feats anyone? Yeah, I'm picking on Dwarves, cause I play em and I know that even DMs evade trying to counter a power built Dwarf build.

Where I think M3nt's argument is solid is how far in power Shifter gets WITHOUT relying on Gear, of which 99% of all other builds need to rely on, to be a solo rofflestomping powerbuild on BGTSCC.

But you are right, Dalo, that the Polymorphing mechanic in general, which not includes Shifter Wild Shape, Druid Wild Shape and the Shapechange spell (arcane/warlock versions), all skew the power curve, based on HOW much power is granted to the build while in Shape, versus all over PC/PrC combos that have to be built for an original form performance (which is not impossible in the least, as can be demonstrated by a fully buffed Paladin/Divinate or a Ranger 30 with top gear).

So I tested a few Shifter combos, like M3nt, and in short time it became absolutely clear the simple route to take to make THE supreme combo Shifter build. Why not take that? I mean, all RP is different, right? So the underlying build is just mechanics.

But if one is looking for equal power level builds using wildly different mechanical foundations out of a single Class or PrC, well, how many OTHER PrCs than Shifter, really give a plethora of options when seeking power?

[DaloLorn]

Okay. But you also can't justify to "block" a build from being made to have max CON and both full lines of Epic DR and Fast Healing!

Or, maybe what you're getting at and I keep overlooking is that Shifter should have MORE options or paths for power, than just the high CON + Epic DR 9/- + Fast Healing III + Evasion/Expose Weakness. However, ANY build that takes that path, will be game breaking!

I'm not suggesting blocking that build. I'm suggesting doing the same thing matelener did to polymorphed EW and DM/EDM: Halve the benefits when shifted. DR 4/- and Regen 3 is still a respectable boost, and this would also affect Wild Shape, non-Shifter Shapechange, and Word of Changing.

Dwarven Defender + 3 Epic DR feats anyone? Yeah, I'm picking on Dwarves, cause I play em and I know that even DMs evade trying to counter a power built Dwarf build.

I mean, if you think the feats need to be nerfed outside the scope of shapeshifting... *shrugs*

Dwarven Defenders have DR identical to the Epic Earth Elemental, though, so I don't think it's that bad?

Where I think M3nt's argument is solid is how far in power Shifter gets WITHOUT relying on Gear, of which 99% of all other builds need to rely on, to be a solo rofflestomping powerbuild on BGTSCC.

But you are right, Dalo, that the Polymorphing mechanic in general, which not includes Shifter Wild Shape, Druid Wild Shape and the Shapechange spell (arcane/warlock versions), all skew the power curve, based on HOW much power is granted to the build while in Shape, versus all over PC/PrC combos that have to be built for an original form performance (which is not impossible in the least, as can be demonstrated by a fully buffed Paladin/Divinate or a Ranger 30 with top gear).

Yeah, I imagine epic wildshapes, Shapechange and Word of Changing don't really depend on having great gear either...

But if one is looking for equal power level builds using wildly different mechanical foundations out of a single Class or PrC, well, how many OTHER PrCs than Shifter, really give a plethora of options when seeking power?

Arcane Trickster's pretty good at that. You can add a little magical oomph to your sneak attack build, or mix it into a Daggerspell Mage (arguably the only way DSM should be played as an arcanist ), or add a little sneakiness to your wizard build. I've actually got a CL29 PTWF build Chad cooked up that also uses AT, though he never made it out of preteens before I migrated to Ravenloft.

Other PRCs that can fit into a variety of builds include Eldritch Knight (bland, but oh so useful), Arcane Scholar, Archmage, and really most of the arcane PRCs when you think about it. (To some extent, though, this speaks more of the diversity of arcane gameplay than the versatility of any specific PRC. )

There's a number of other PRCs that see widespread use, and even Shifters have a variety of interesting multiclassing options. However, as a 20-level PRC, a pure Shifter should still be capable of justifying that investment. This is why I'm worried about nerfing the PRC directly instead of nerfing overperforming Shifter-based builds where possible.

[Steve]

So, essentially you are saying BGTSCC should nerf the way M3nt makes his Shifter build, but not the way Dalolorn builds his Shifter?!?

Thing is, there is still no real standard established by which to judge. There used to be an unwritten standard that Paladin 30 and/or Ranger 30 power levels at peak min/max where the standards to judge OP for melee builds.

If there would be a standard adopted here, THEN I think one could either surgically or nuclearly nerf Shifter, depending on how best to get it to the Standard.

[DaloLorn]

So, essentially you are saying BGTSCC should nerf the way M3nt makes his Shifter build, but not the way Dalolorn builds his Shifter?!?

M3nt is trying to nerf the way everyone makes their Shifter builds. I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to respond with a counterproposal to only nerf his build.

In all seriousness, though: If something is overperforming when combined with something else, but is otherwise performing as intended, the logical course of action is to target the combination of X+Y, rather than targeting the individual performance of X or Y. Matelener did it with DM/EDM, so we know that he is both able and willing to perform surgical nerfs if the need arises.

Now, the question that's been debated over and over is whether Shifters are intrinsically overperforming. On this front, I am unable to comment, since Rinn only hit Shifter 1 this Wednesday and is taking her sweet time progressing through her teens. However, they already received multiple "nuclear" nerfs before going live; I am hesitant to recommend more without further information.

Thing is, there is still no real standard established by which to judge. There used to be an unwritten standard that Paladin 30 and/or Ranger 30 power levels at peak min/max where the standards to judge OP for melee builds.

If there would be a standard adopted here, THEN I think one could either surgically or nuclearly nerf Shifter, depending on how best to get it to the Standard.

I don't see much wrong with this part of your post, though I am somewhat intimidated by the notion of 300+ damage per round being the standard... (Okay, no, I don't think the super-archers I occasionally see are pure Rangers, but still! )

[mrm3ntalist]

So, essentially you are saying BGTSCC should nerf the way M3nt makes his Shifter build, but not the way Dalolorn builds his Shifter?!?

M3nt is trying to nerf the way everyone makes their Shifter builds. I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to respond with a counterproposal to only nerf his build.

In all seriousness, though: If something is overperforming when combined with something else, but is otherwise performing as intended, the logical course of action is to target the combination of X+Y, rather than targeting the individual performance of X or Y. Matelener did it with DM/EDM, so we know that he is both able and willing to perform surgical nerfs if the need arises.

Now, the question that's been debated over and over is whether Shifters are intrinsically overperforming. On this front, I am unable to comment, since Rinn only hit Shifter 1 this Wednesday and is taking her sweet time progressing through her teens. However, they already received multiple "nuclear" nerfs before going live; I am hesitant to recommend more without further information.

Thing is, there is still no real standard established by which to judge. There used to be an unwritten standard that Paladin 30 and/or Ranger 30 power levels at peak min/max where the standards to judge OP for melee builds.

If there would be a standard adopted here, THEN I think one could either surgically or nuclearly nerf Shifter, depending on how best to get it to the Standard.

I don't see much wrong with this part of your post, though I am somewhat intimidated by the notion of 300+ damage per round being the standard... (Okay, no, I don't think the super-archers I occasionally see are pure Rangers, but still! )

What matelener did with EW and EDM and what you propose to do with CON is that he recognized that there is a problem but instead of solving the problem at its core, he tried some "patches". Such patches always come to bite you in the ass and add to the complexity of doing future changes . I dont know what your definition of OP is, but if a 20level PRC with minimal equipment enables a player to easily solo all PvE content WITHOUT any UMD, then that is the definition of OP. The huge regen in combination of DR adn speed movement increase is what breaks it. I guess in your world it is common for melee builds to have 10DR, 10regen, 30% speed increase and multiattack. Just because you made your build in way that doesnt synergize with the shifters' power doesnt change this.

Finally I do not care if you or anyone else nerf specifically my builds, even though i would bet that 90% of the shifters are now CON based. Especially if that results in a PRC closer to the power level of the other PRCs - i guess that is the big difference between you and me.

EDIT: BTW the reason that you do not have to powerbuild with the shifter PRC, is because the PRC does all the power building for you. Uncanny dodge AND Blindfight AND tumble AND 3regen AND unlimited shifting on top of the forms' abilities ... KEKW Powerbuilders do crazy class splits and try to get every possible feat and do not come close to all the things the Shifter can get. No, by playing this PRC you are a powerbuilder