BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

[Steve]

But group play already does give better rewards compared to solo play ... even just mechanical ones ... you kill things much faster, you get RP EXP, the carrots exist.

Yes…when you’re talking about grinding. Grinding simply pays out proportionally to group size.

So if grinding is what is supported on a RP server, then right now, we’re good. Lol.

Compare group/solo grinding carrots to group/solo social and/or RP carrots, in terms of payout.

[Theodore01]

Yeah, let bosses drop some more carrots - hell, make it even an adamantine carrot on a lucky roll.

[Rhifox]

The Consignment is sooooo artificial and OOC, really. Like how UD/Surface items are on the same list. LOL. I could go on and on....

Yes and no. Consignment tends to be an RP hot spot because people check it regularly, which means you often run into other RPers here. So while the consignment system itself might be a bit awkward OOCly, it *does* draw players together, which spurs RP. Consignment tends to be one of the spots where I'm most likely to get involved in dynamic RP.

Which is one reason the necessity to move the UD/Soubar consignment shops into cross-server transitions really sucks. :/ I kind of wish we did have two separate consignments, one for S1 and one for S2.

[YYA]

I kind of wish we did have two separate consignments, one for S1 and one for S2.

The S1 one would be full, and Underdark players would mule items in Nexus to be sold there. S2 would be empty, and simply because of less people playing in Underdark.

Ooh, dropping consumables from Mudd's would be an interesting shift... I like the sound of it.

I'm not sure how players with Alchemist PCs would feel, though.

I do not care about how current Alchemist players would feel like, because such a change would just force other players to create their own Alchemist characters. And when people have a character of their own, they will have the perfect opportunity to brew their elixirs to the exact need. For example, if a particular area does not have dispel mobs, elixirs of lower caster level and therefore lower cost can be far more preferable than the ones that used to be sold with the caster level of 30. And if you are brewing a one set elixirs for your own character, what would actually stop you from just looking through the spell book for additional spells that might aid your other character in some specific area? As for transferring those potions and elixirs to their own characters, well, the good old pile on ground or campfire to hold them methods works just fine. Or they could just ask someone else to hold those elixirs for but a moment, alongside with the replacement crafting gold, and even if you throw around a tip or two, it will cost less. Currently people can be lazy, and just buy whatever they see in the in game consignment store, and by removing the option to be lazy when acquiring elixirs, they chances are you will just increase their use beyond what it was prior. It is what happened with the usage of alcohol whenever prohibition laws were attempted in the real world.

Even with how varied an numerous the areas are under level 20 you can't find an easy one at some levels ? If so ok, some monsters can be tweaked to make things easier rather than making a whole new bunch of easy mode areas who would promptly become Xvartlands.

After dying in the Gnoll cave with that dart thrower of mine, I took her to the Wood of Sharpteeth, she could take down orcs one at a time. Then a werewolf spawned in, and things weren't fun because the stacks of 50 Alchemical silver dart cost like 264 gold pieces, and I had not bought any. (Stack of 99 Alchemical Silver Arrows/Bullets/Bolts costs like 6 gp a stack.)

And what is easy is dependent on the character in question, sometimes there are replacement areas, sometimes there are not. And as for me, it is far easier fto just delegate a character into the slow back burner, which means that a character is only logged in when it is the time to do the weekly quest grind, or when someone is looking for a party in that character's level range.

Oh, and I have had characters that simply cannot survive the Xvartlands. And honestly, the Xvartlands would be so bad if there were other areas of its kind. You have forced people to go to Xvartlands, thus players get sick and tired of Xvarts, which in part explains the dislike towards grinding. It is the same mobs, hour after hour. But if there were the easy mode 'Wetsock Bandit' lands or whatever, if you are sick and tired of the bandits, you go try something else.

[MrSmith]

The Consignment is sooooo artificial and OOC, really. Like how UD/Surface items are on the same list. LOL. I could go on and on....

Yes and no. Consignment tends to be an RP hot spot because people check it regularly, which means you often run into other RPers here. So while the consignment system itself might be a bit awkward OOCly, it *does* draw players together, which spurs RP. Consignment tends to be one of the spots where I'm most likely to get involved in dynamic RP.

Which is one reason the necessity to move the UD/Soubar consignment shops into cross-server transitions really sucks. :/ I kind of wish we did have two separate consignments, one for S1 and one for S2.

The Consignment shop is an awesome concept as it gives a character some semblance of control over the outcome of their individual efforts. It is always one of the first and last gathering points for most of my characters. Because of this, it's a great place to overhear gossip and engage in conversation. I absolutely agree with Rhifox's assessment... The value the Consignment Shop adds to the community far exceeds any of its artificiality.

To achieve a similar effect would likely require a DM to volunteer their time once a week (at a minimum) to either "stump" as an auctioneer or oversee a player doing the same. Characters could bring forth items of value and privately set minimum bid values... If the Auctioneer secures a value higher than the minimum bid, then they would pocket a commission on the sale. I could see the value of a few skill rolls at play here.

[Steve]

Anecdote #457:

Yesterday, my Half-Orc was engaged with Mudd at his stall, and another PC (player) runs over from afar, having distance-clicked on Mudd to talk. Of course, pathing had this other toon RUNTHROUGH my Half-Orc, pushing him out of line, flipping his direction even.

I adjusted his position manually from this occurrence, and emoted a *growls* standing next to the newcomer-space basher. No response.

That’s RP for ya!

[Rhifox]

Anecdote #457:

Yesterday, my Half-Orc was engaged with Mudd at his stall, and another PC (player) runs over from afar, having distance-clicked on Mudd to talk. Of course, pathing had this other toon RUNTHROUGH my Half-Orc, pushing him out of line, flipping his direction even.

I adjusted his position manually from this occurrence, and emoted a *growls* standing next to the newcomer-space basher. No response.

That’s RP for ya!

I mean, some players being jerks is hardly new for BG. But there's plenty of positive experiences to be had, too.

[DaloLorn]

Regarding the Mudd discussion: I have honestly never seen any RP occur at Mudd's except when several characters who were already engaged in RP decided to go there together. Starting a new conversation is highly improbable at best, and only if it's between PCs who already know each other.

Hopefully, the reward will not make a party cry (That's wonderful news!)

I'm of the philosophy that hard work is its own reward, so don't hold your breath.

Not a very common philosophy in game design, and with good reason. People tend to gravitate towards whatever gets them the best reward for the amount of effort invested. The definitions and relative values of "reward" and "effort" may vary considerably from person to person: Some people might find tolerating Xvart Run #5850251 to be a far more significant effort than completing an otherwise harder dungeon like the Gullykin crypts, or find the RP or arguable bragging rights more valuable than the loot and XP obtained.

I am of the sort that considers good RP preferable to good loot+XP (though I'd gladly try to get all three all at once! ), doesn't give a fig leaf for bragging rights, and finds it harder to circle through xvarts ten times in one session than to RP through multiple other dungeons. But I am also acutely aware of the fact that I am in the minority on at least one of those fronts.

[Valefort]

But group play already does give better rewards compared to solo play ... even just mechanical ones ... you kill things much faster, you get RP EXP, the carrots exist.

Yes…when you’re talking about grinding. Grinding simply pays out proportionally to group size.

So if grinding is what is supported on a RP server, then right now, we’re good. Lol.

Compare group/solo grinding carrots to group/solo social and/or RP carrots, in terms of payout.

If you compare solo grinding to group adventuring the payout is favorable for group adventuring. Now if you compare group adventuring (as in taking your time exploring, RPing) and group grinding then yes the payout of group grinding will be superior in terms of loot and exp. What to do there, setting a combat exp cap per reset perhaps ?

[gedweyignasia]

Hopefully, the reward will not make a party cry (That's wonderful news!)

I'm of the philosophy that hard work is its own reward, so don't hold your breath.

Not a very common philosophy in game design, and with good reason. People tend to gravitate towards whatever gets them the best reward for the amount of effort invested.

I'm trying to make content that helps players tell a story, not compete in a game. My first dungeon is the least popular zone in the server, and it'd be a shame if my second didn't at least come close to that record.

[Snarfy]

I'm trying to make content that helps players tell a story, not compete in a game. My first dungeon is the least popular zone in the server, and it'd be a shame if my second didn't at least come close to that record.

Trust me, your dungeon gets more visitors than some of the other dungeons. I've been there a few times solo(of course), but eventually got stuck behind a puzzle and buggered off. But it wasn't frustrating at all. I prefer to lurk around dungeons, take my time exploring, look in every nook and cranny, and(because I do not play heavily optimized builds) when it comes to monsters, I pick my spots and single them out. Hence the reason I wouldn't go to your dungeon with a pick up group(and my character has zero compatibility with the characters that I regularly see in your dungeon).

Now, if your second dungeon is going to make even powerbuild groups cry, and seeing as how none of my level 30's are powerbuilds, as well as I tend to only group up once every few months or so, what are the chances of a player like me ever visiting it? We already have several dungeons that give solid groups(6'ish toons) of non-optimized characters fits. The last time I went to one, we all got party wiped by high DC stun spamming mobs(the runner/gung-ho of the group opened the wrong door before the rest had a chance to get ready)... imagine a hammer raining down on a can of sardines. Sounds fun, right?

The thing is, I don't go to dungeons for XP, or to see how many mobs I can pwn. And loot is just a bonus. I go to dungeons for the atmosphere, and to explore, and if... gods forbid, I win the rp-compatibility lottery and find a group, I go to them for the "adventure". I know the limitations of my characters, so if I find myself down to 20hp within the first minute of entering said dungeons, I rarely, if ever, go back.

[gedweyignasia]

I'm trying to make content that helps players tell a story, not compete in a game. My first dungeon is the least popular zone in the server, and it'd be a shame if my second didn't at least come close to that record.

Trust me, your dungeon gets more visitors than some of the other dungeons. I've been there a few times solo(of course), but eventually got stuck behind a puzzle and buggered off. But it wasn't frustrating at all. I prefer to lurk around dungeons, take my time exploring, look in every nook and cranny, and(because I do not play heavily optimized builds) when it comes to monsters, I pick my spots and single them out. Hence the reason I wouldn't go to your dungeon with a pick up group(and my character has zero compatibility with the characters that I regularly see in your dungeon).

The hope was that people would hang around and idly try the puzzles while they RP'd. Basically, campfire RP, but in a more flavorful environment. It's like magazines or the little twisted metal puzzles with shapes stuck together in a waiting room for your doctor or dentist. Didn't work out that way.

Now, if your second dungeon is going to make even powerbuild groups cry, and seeing as how none of my level 30's are powerbuilds, as well as I tend to only group up once every few months or so, what are the chances of a player like me ever visiting it? We already have several dungeons that give solid groups(6'ish toons) of non-optimized characters fits. The last time I went to one, we all got party wiped by high DC stun spamming mobs(the runner/gung-ho of the group opened the wrong door before the rest had a chance to get ready)... imagine a hammer raining down on a can of sardines. Sounds fun, right?

As ever, this dungeon is designed to allow you to RP. If that means hiding in a locked room together and waiting for the monsters to go away, I want that to be a viable option. (It is; you'll see.) On the other hand, if it means charging head-first into insane numbers of difficult enemies to explore the area and learn what it's about, that's an option too. Or maybe you just want to sneak about and learn the layout; you won't accomplish much that way, but you'll have done some valuable scouting in case you decide to come back as a group. Naturally, it'll have a very annoying mechanism that discourages players from ever visiting, but makes for a different experience in case anyone is interested.

[Calen]

The issue with the difficulty is the imbalance in general, a lot of mob design does not affect overpowered classes for the slightest.
By it's core D&D isn't balanced, throw in the nwn2 engine and it is best not to attempt to create an MMORPG type of balanced system.
BGTSCC has how ever attempted it , by nerfing/buffing and introducing the 3/20 rule which does nothing to stop power builds but hampers non powerbuilds.

Further more BGTSCC measures with two cups when it comes to balance, lets look at swashbuckler.

Swashbuckler:

1: Dex based builds tend to suffer from mobs having damage reduction.
2: Int based builds suffer from having low saves and relatively low health for a tank.
3: Int builds needs epic precision on this server
4: The stat reduction abilities do not work on bosses/undead and random mobs that appear to be immune to it.
5: Hindered by the 3/20 rule to optimize a lot of it's builds
6: geared depended

If you go deep swash you sacrifice a lot and end up having your mechanics not working on the challenges that they should be working for.Instead of choosing to cap the stat reduction it is just turned useless for epic content. Int swash is quite a good melee build but it has glaring weaknesses thus in a party setup with a cleric/druid that buffs them they work well.

Con warlock:

1: Higher damage out put duo to not having any limitations.
2: While being a caster, is the superior tank
3: better saves
4: sacrifices absolutely nothing
5: Effectively able to kill faster than some 3 man party groups
6: Doesn't care for 3/20 and can be powerbuild with out an issue.
7 less gear depended

The mobs I've mentioned in my earlier post do not pose much of threat for warlocks/barbs/bard to name a few, nor do they particularly care for the dispel spam.
Thus your design effectively challenges normal/weaker builds and ignores the overpowered classes, which often result in them turning into one man armies.


What you end up with is this.

- You'll have to decide between either balancing classes or designing encounters towards weakest or the strongest builds.

- RP skills/stats aren't valued or enforced, thus design should be towards optimized pve builds.

- Stick to the philosophy, you either try to balance all classes or you leave it all be. Having something like warlocks running around while enforcing 3/20 for the sake of balance is measuring with two cups.

- Design what drops in an area vs muling , for this I would ask for one thing. Bring back level restriction so areas can be balanced a bit better.

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When it comes to mob design it self

- Instead of creating a script that makes mobs rotate their spells, you could consider adding a wider variety of mobs in a spawn.

- Certain spawns could be designed to counter specific builds, allowing different party members to shine.

- By adding more mobs variety in a spawn group you'll also allow them to be more dangerous and fun. Have them cast darkness,silence on the casters, knock people down or sneak bow a caster.

- I would go for having bigger spawns in some areas., thus putting more accent on team work.

[Steve]

My first dungeon is the least popular zone in the server, and it'd be a shame if my second didn't at least come close to that record.

But they are amazing first-time visit Areas!

[Steve]

The thing is, I don't go to dungeons for XP, or to see how many mobs I can pwn. And loot is just a bonus. I go to dungeons for the atmosphere, and to explore, and if...

Imagine a dungeon of aesthetic epicness...that has no mobs, and is just there for role-play, and perhaps...CvC conflict?!?