Bladesinger AC Bonus

[silvercloak]

One small change that I believe would help bladesinger (although I don't know that this does it all) and add some potential build diversity is around the INT investment in AC.

I would propose to change the bladesong AC bonus to full INT bonus capped by 1/2 bladesinger level (Still a +5 cap but with achieved through a 20 INT instead of 30 INT).

A 30 INT investment is a big lean for a half-caster class that is fairly MAD and compared to the dodge bonuses for Champ of Corellon, Swashbuckler, etc. get at this seems equitable. This would open up additional builds (STR and bard) for bladesinger.

For those that want to go full investment for combat insight and do more DC based casting that option is still there and has its own benefits.

[Dragonslayer]

I'd support this. As it stands, sorcerer/bard bladesingers are SOL when it comes to bladesong, it'd be nice to have an extra 2 or 3 AC for one of the main features of the class.

[AC81]

Does anyone need more AC with an arcane spellbook at their disposal? You’re talking about giving one of the better prcs a buff?

[silvercloak]

Actually the amount of max AC is the same. Some builds will likely pick up a couple points of AC that aren't straight INT maxed but a couple of points is not huge.

It will allow some builds to have more AB and/or hp or bard/bladesinger to be viable.

[AC81]

What makes a bard/blade singer not viable? (Aside from the point that removing more than about 4 levels from 30 bard levels is always going to make a bard weaker).

If bladesingers don’t have to focus as much on int to get that AC, they can focus on other things, thus a power boost.
If I could get that 5 AC from 20 int, I’d roll a sun elf, push int to 16 on creation, slap on a +4 int item for my 20 int and 5 points of AC. Without having to spend any epic feats on armoured caster, I could max str and have everything that any other gish aspires to with 3 extra epic feats and 5 extra AC.

[YYA]

It would probably make the Bladesinger more Gishy PRC.

But truth be told, nothing stops a Wizard 10/Bladesinger 10/Eldritch Knight 10 from going all in on dexterity. Start as a Sun Elf, start with 18 Intelligence, put one ability score increase to it, and slap on any old +3 Intelligence item, and you are looking at the intelligence modifier of +6, which is +3 intelligence based AC.

As for armor, you get to wear, Mithral Chain Mail, which basically only requires base Dexterity of 14 and a +4 Enchantment bonus from just about any source. Thus, you can leave your Constitution and Strength modifiers odd to make most out of a Belt of Growth, and you got a fully buffed up Bladesinger that will have more less the same AC, AB, and Damage as any old Sorcerer/Dragonslayer/Eldritch Knight. Auto Still I-III used to give the sorcerer build some edge, as they could more freely combine Stone/Iron Body with Cloudkill, but these days you can just buy grapes that should give poison immunity, thus even a Bladesinger can easily just stand in the middle of a Cloudkill AoE and take no constitution damage and continue to cast spells just as needed.

I honestly, do not care either way.

[Hoihe]

Does anyone need more AC with an arcane spellbook at their disposal? You’re talking about giving one of the better prcs a buff?

>Better PRC

It's one of the worst caster PRCs.

You can literally do what a bladesinger is supposed to do, but better, by going swash/du/wizard/SD rather than Bladesinger.

My friend played a Bladesinger throughout the devil war plot and was utterly useless, as the only viability BSes have is if they spend their entire spellbook on buffs and at that point..

Why aren't you just playing a fighter with UMD?

This would permit bladesingers to actually afford to CAST spells, as they can afford higher unbuffed physical stats, which allows them to actually cast real spells.

[Dragonslayer]

What makes a bard/blade singer not viable? (Aside from the point that removing more than about 4 levels from 30 bard levels is always going to make a bard weaker).

If bladesingers don’t have to focus as much on int to get that AC, they can focus on other things, thus a power boost.
If I could get that 5 AC from 20 int, I’d roll a sun elf, push int to 16 on creation, slap on a +4 int item for my 20 int and 5 points of AC. Without having to spend any epic feats on armoured caster, I could max str and have everything that any other gish aspires to with 3 extra epic feats and 5 extra AC.

Sure, but your DC's would be awful with having to invest in CHA as well as STR in order to have any sort of spellcasting. As it stands now, a wizard bladesinger needs to only focus on DEX and INT, while a CHA based bladesinger needs to focus on STR, INT, and CHA to have similar levels of non-burst damage and AC.

Also, one the main points of the class is having armored caster for free, so I don't know why you'd take another feat for it? Unless you're talking about just taking 4 levels of bladesinger for the +4 AC bonus with an 18 INT, in which case you'd get two extra epic feats if you took armored caster pre-epic.

Although, that does raise a good point, perhaps unintentionally. A four level dip for a bard would be a decent AC bump if invested in 14 INT, 18 buffed. That said, you'd still need to invest in STR and CHA to make it at all effective for spells and songs. What's more, you'd have to invest in Practiced Spellcaster to make up for that 2 level dump in CL if you're worried about dispels (10%)

But as it stands, the main stats for damage and AC are more varied for a CHA based bladesinger, as opposed to an INT based one. This is in line with PnP, true, but it would be nice to have a bit more variety for a class that has a 6/10 caster level.

[yyj]

The class is already very strong, if some people aren't willing to build properly to maximize the benefits from the class, it shouldn't be buffed simply because of that, otherwise why not just give free AC to fighters or any random class.

[silvercloak]

Unless you're talking about just taking 4 levels of bladesinger for the +4 AC bonus with an 18 INT, in which case you'd get two extra epic feats if you took armored caster pre-epic.

Just to be clear that wasn't what I proposed, at an 18 INT you'd have to invest 8 levels of bladesinger to get the +4 AC. At 4th level it would be the +2AC.

[Valefort]

No the class is quite strong as is.

[AC81]

With a bard/bladesinger you’re trying to combine an int-based prc with a chr based class. It’s going to be tough and isn’t optimal.
All melee gishes need to make a choice about what aspect of their play they want to prioritise. It’s only with the advent of bladesinger that you can now have a high AC, high DC, decent damage melee gish. Previous to bladesinger no melee gishes had decent DC’s.
Why does a bard/bladesinger need to max int? Just raise it to 18(ish) with items and focus on str/dex and chr as needed. You’ll still be a bard with a bit of extra AC and some extra abilities. Even a B26/BS4 with 10 int (14 with items) gets 2 extra AC. Not bad for a 4 level dip.

[DaloLorn]

I think I'd like to hear more about why the class is strong or weak or whatever it is. Hoihe's post implies that if the class is at all viable, it is only possible by violating the core concepts of its RP. Which principles are those, and how does violating them make bladesingers playable?

[Steve]

I built a Bard 20 / Deathsinger 7 / Shadowdancer 3.

It’s stats are:

AC:
19 + 1 (w/ Cat's but -1 armor max DEX) + 3 (Bladesong INT-to-AC bonus) + 4 armor AC + 4 mith chain shirt) + 12 set +1 OW= 44 (+4 shield spell + 2 IMA = 50; +3 CE = 53; + 2-3 w/ UMD = 56 max) and add in Displaced Mirrors for near invulnerability!

AB:
28 + 2 (w/ STR +3) + 4 EB + 4 Inspire Courage = 38 (-3 CE; +4 Gr. Heroism = 39; +2 War Cry = 41; +1 Inspiration Boost = 42; sometimes 1d4 OW = 43-46)...with EW AC reduction AND from Stealth (!) not calculated!

DMG:
1d8 longsword + 5 EB (GMW) + 12 (Combat Insight w/ Fox's * 1.5)+ 4 Inspire (5 w/ Boost) + 2 War Cry + 1d4 sonic weapon spell = 30 dmg avg. + 12 dmg per round w/ EW (without weapon properties...if you can find)

Pros
28 CL (10% gr. dispellability)
HiPS w/ Decent stats
Evasion/Uncanny Dodge
Bard Spell book
Song of Requiem
a few Bladesinger perks

Cons
28 CL (10% gr. dispellability)
Saves are low
Soloable?!?

One doesn’t make CHA on a Bard gish because Bard DC spells aren’t good.

[YYA]

Bard 4/Fighter 6/Bladesinger 10/Champion of Corellon Larethian 10 could avoid multiclassing experience penalty even on any elf subrace, by taking Fighter 6 at level 30. You have ten levels of or so of Bard spellcasting progression, so you could make do with base 10 Charisma and a +3 Charisma item to get your third level spells. And if you want to cast the two fourth level spells, you only need to reach 18 Charisma for one bonus spell, so either base 14 or 15 Charisma with either +4 or +3 Charisma item respectively. With Weapon Finesse and Elegant Strike, your Dexterity modifier gives both AB and Damage to your Rapier. Bladesinger and Champion of Corellon PRC requirements line in with one and other, and if you go for higher Intelligence modifier not only does it offer more skill points to put wherever, but also AC thanks to Bladesinger and potentially extra damage with the Combat Insight epic feat. You will sit at BAB of 29, you can have full investment in Tumble and UMD, not to mention how your bard levels alone let you cast a number of defensive spells from any scroll you come by from loot.

Thus if you are willing to stomach some UMD dependency when it comes to AB, nothing stops you from going 30 Intelligence, in order to get full +5 AC from Bladesinger with your Mithral Light Armor of Hoice in addition to +10 Damage per hit with Combat Insight, while Champion of Corellon lets you get additional +3 AC from Superior Defense and thanks to Weapon Finesse and Elegant Strike, every point placed in Dexterity will increase not only your AB but also your Damage as well. Oh, and Bard gives you +1 AB and Magic Damage from Inspire Courage, which you can momentarily boost to +2 with Inspirational Boost spell from the bard spell book. At times it might not feel like the most ideal character build to level up, but it is not going to be worst experience imaginable, and at level 30 it is just going to be a fun build to run around with.

And anyhow, nothing stops you from doing the same with a Fighter 4/Wizard 6/Bladesinger 10/Champion of Corellon Larethian 10, and it will lower your BAB to 27 you will lack Bard's Inspire Courage, UMD as a class skill, and it will take longer to wear that Light Armor while casting spells, but you do not have to invest in Charisma, which means slightly higher base ability scores elsewhere. And once again, you can go for your ideal split between Dexterity and Intelligence, and if you do go for that 30 Intelligence, you will have a +10 abillity score modifier with that Bigby Six. There are Berries that offer your immunity to Poison, so you can just sit in the middle of your own Cloudkill spell, which ignores spell Resistance and is correctly a Conjuration spell. And if this server hadn't boosted damage caps of some spells, Practised Spell Caster feat would grant you the caster level of 16, which would have maximized the damage die of pretty much every damage dealing spell you got.