Concern on the new guild outpost system.

[EasternCheesE]

Please advise me what exact activities from the list lead to 0 RP interactions between the faction and rest of server?

Patrols of area of interests will draw DM and player attention. There is no sense in patrolling something in dead server hours as this draws no RP and most DMs are sleeping.
Boss fights in region as guilds: This solely depends on DMs and how they make these fights. It can be some situation varying from small group to full scale server event.
Rectuitment. Well, this requires forums/IC RP with others, doesn't it?
Stores/trading in area. Once again, there should be customers, thus it requires other people.
Training in the area. Same as boss fights, it can vary from small group to two friendly guilds actually making a big non-lethal brawl to train their staff.
Meetings in area. Once again, this one can scale a lot.

All of such activities leave a wide field of opportunities to help, hamper or even undermine guild efforts for both other guilds and single people.

Just as Shrine of Malar was bombed by few people which can have outcome in later, nobody is stopped from actively influencing Guild attempts to seize control over the region with the help of DM coordination.
There may be some limitations and objectives added that will allow to make more people included in such activities, but saying "this idea is bad" without providing which exact points are bad and how to make them good is fruitless and achieves nothing.

[DaloLorn]

Yeah, I'm with EC on this one. I don't see how it's going to work out the way you describe.

[Xorena]

I come at this from the perspective of someone who worries about DM sanity. I haven't ever been one, nor do I intend to be. I have heard rumors of inboxes being filled with hundreds of unread messages and players who bombard DMs with little requests for acknowledgement of their actions.

I have to imagine this system was borne out of a desire to:

1) Provide more accountability for how guilds get and maintain outposts.

2) Give DMs a hard and fast rule to follow when players ask instead of trying to guess what other guilds have done to create a level playing field.

3) Reduce inbox fatigue for DMs from players asking for RP acknowledgement of their efforts, as well as accusations of favoritism to Admins.

4) Provide transparency and a clear path for players to follow to obtain these outposts instead of it being incredibly mysterious.

Not long ago, DMs sent a PM to guild leaders asking for accounting on guild assets, and how guilds obtained these assets. I suspect, but do not know, that this point system is devised to also:

1) Keep guilds honest about acquiring new assets instead of having a good friend on the builder team. Again, this reduces cries of favoritism.

2) Deprecate assets over time if there is no sustained RP to justify outposts. Great example is Red Wizard merchant in the Underdark. We've got a player who is RPing in the Underdark to maintain activity there (bravo, you!). That player will now have to document their efforts. RW has had periods of activity but more often, periods of stagnation, where players did not do any RP for literal years. RW would have lost its merchant in the Underdark in this case.

3) Might lead to deprecation of entire guild halls? I personally think there are too many unused guild halls. RW was inactive for something like 2-3 years at one point, and under this type of system, RW could become an NPC faction only. (This is just speculation.)

Suggestion:

Consider adding a merchant vessel or other ship to the outpost tiers. I expect possibly outpost level 4, 5 or 6 depending on size or capability?

EDIT: I appreciate the three month time windows for evaluation of outposts, which helps level out periods of low player activity.

[Wolfshear]

All of the activities can be very easily gamed. And like i said it promotes interaction with your clique/faction, not with other people. All of these things can be accomplished without speaking to another soul outside of perhaps trading.

But are we really at the point where we want to force documentation of every single rp interaction we ever have or every thing we ever do? Because that is also what this will do, in order to score points and stay relevent a faction/group/player will be forced to farm it. It doesn't encourage me to actually go out and greet the world it forces me to grab my friend, have a bit of conversation (assuming people dont fake these things which could never be fully enforced but i digress) and screenshot every little thing every single time. All without really interacting with people other than my friend. And under this system, i have to do this as often as possible...For the points.

And kind of in agreement with Xorena a little bit here, but for years a big thing has been how overstretched dm's can get. How does this level of bookkeeping where they have to manage every single rp action ever (real or fake) and assign points to it going to alleviate that? And again, because of how the system works, farming it will absolutely be a requirement.

Forum rp is all well and good but it shouldnt have points or true ingame effects to it. It should only act as some supplemental thing in order to maybe draw attention to something at best. And encouraging people to post stuff is fantastic, but making it a requirement for farming purposes will just lead to ultimately shallow circumstances with no real story behind it.

[DaloLorn]

2) Deprecate assets over time if there is no sustained RP to justify outposts. Great example is Red Wizard merchant in the Underdark. We've got a player who is RPing in the Underdark to maintain activity there (bravo, you!). That player will now have to document their efforts. RW has had periods of activity but more often, periods of stagnation, where players did not do any RP for literal years. RW would have lost its merchant in the Underdark in this case.

3) Might lead to deprecation of entire guild halls? I personally think there are too many unused guild halls. RW was inactive for something like 2-3 years at one point, and under this type of system, RW could become an NPC faction only. (This is just speculation.)

Regarding 2): All existing outposts have been grandfathered in under level 6, so you will not need to document Thayan activities in Sshamath... until someone actively moves to take/destroy the outpost. All of this is stated quite clearly in the announcement.

As for 3): Guild halls are entirely separate from the outpost system. This, too, was highlighted in the announcement.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Hey guys,

I wanted to give all of you a chance to respond with both criticism (useful, and otherwise not) before I responded. I think two pages is a good place to drop my own thoughts in, so please bear with me. I'm sure the admin team or the HDMs will respond as well, at some point, but ​let's go through some of the concerns, and I'll make my thoughts as clear as I'm able.

I find myself very concerned. Even though, theoretically I could quite easily benefit from such a system..I am honestly not a fan. It strikes me as an incredibly ooc gamey system that is horrendously exploitable. It shifts focus away from rping with others and weaving stories together to this strange ooc points system that is more about bookkeeping than it is about actual rp cunning or shared stories.

First, this is an optional system. You don't have to use it if you don't want to, and it's meant only to provide another way for guilds to have an effect on the world that they already strive to accomplish. There's no real mechanical benefit; it's purely meant as an RP tool that is transparent as possible without being able to be 'gamed' to a huge extent.

So yes, you could benefit. By roleplaying with your guild and other guilds. That's the benefit, and the requirement.

Group A who happens to be in a heavy DM timezone shouldnt have a better chance due to getting these OOC points faster than Group B who is outside normal play times. If a group wants to establish an outpost or something elsewhere, they should work actively for that specifically through RP, not have to 'farm' some OOC points by performing unrelated activities in order to get enough points to start working on starting said outpost.

As Steve correctly points out, the point of the system is that its accessible to every guild, no matter the timezone. If Guild A has five players in its timezone, and they want to start a guild and expand influence, this is a way for them to do that because the RP documentation allows the DMs who aren't in their timezone to credit it.

Except nothing about it encourages roleplay. It encourages ooc bookkeeping and screenshots that can easily be gamed. While the easy exploitation of it is something i take issue with, what i take the most issue with is how far this skews things to a non ingame or rp bent. It encourages isolation and random posts that do nothing to create any kind of story or interaction.

The forums have always been part of the server 'story.' Major events, character biographies, roleplayed interactions are all fair game already on the forums. People use the forums, because some cannot be in game all the time every day. It serves as a way to push roleplay forward without it having to be in game. This is another extension of that.

Perhaps limit the number per guild to 1 at any time. Unless you take on over, I suppose? Since it seems they can be taken if enough effort is put in to it. But, also a certain amount of RP needs to be put in to it (Lumber and stone need to be acquired via NPC or PC merchants, builders need to be hired,etc?). If a take over is attempted, the current owner needs to be notified and given an opportunity to defend

Excellent thoughts. We didn't want to limit guilds to one, because we want you to be as active as you're able to be. If your guild is active enough to get two, or three outposts, then you're contributing to the roleplay of the server overall to the extent that you likely deserve that many. The system is not meant to be punitive, but to give people a clear roadmap on how to effect change through the guild system already in place, and to provide transparency to prevent favoritism calls.

Or basically everything Xorena said.

Forum documentation is required, yes, but I’m sure if the guild RP was clandestine, one could keep the docu to private guild pages OR just send into the DMs by PM.

Correct! As stated in the thread, actually. Secretive organizations can send a PM, others can do a thread. Or a combination, if that makes them feel better.

I will say that if anything is worrisome, and a Wolfy does point out, this Outpost System does put greater focus onto Guilds, and many players RP just as inch but do it in a more solo, non-organization way. These players won’t be able to make use of the Outpost System (as its written now).

Also correct. Single players can't create outposts because, well, they're single players. They don't have the resources that an organization has, and honestly it would be detrimental to the server if we allowed people to do so as, Wolfshear points out, it doesn't contribute to the roleplay. That said, unaffiliated players can contribute to a guild by joining them in their activities.

Lastly, I will give some free advice: this Outpost System will fail if two things fall apart. 1) it takes 3+ months for an Outpost to get IG after the RP and points are earned and spent. I hope the DMs and Builders are prepared to make smart and quick decisions + work here, because nothings makes a player quit faster than having their RP and “work” towards a System setup by Staff get ignored. 2) a better understanding of conflict RP, CvC play, etc. Because I can foresee that as soon as a Guild establishes an asset and another Guild moves to “steal” it, dear lord, will the complaints come rolling in.

Excellent criticism, and the point is taken. It's why the tile limit is so small, as to allow builders to go in 4 times a year and make minor map changes that players can enjoy. As for conflict, that is part of the process. If people complain, we'll handle it as fairly as we can.

As I've said, we're definitely open to suggestions, and this is a pilot program. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

But our goal here is to empower players through roleplay in a transparent and fair manner. We're open to constructive criticism, we're open to new ideas, and we're trying to make the server a place where someone's roleplay towards a goal doesn't get lost, or ignored, or berated. What's more, if the rules are clear on how to accomplish something, it makes it so that players are more likely to actually try, rather than get discouraged before they begin.

[EasternCheesE]

All of the activities can be very easily gamed. And like i said it promotes interaction with your clique/faction, not with other people. All of these things can be accomplished without speaking to another soul outside of perhaps trading.

But are we really at the point where we want to force documentation of every single rp interaction we ever have or every thing we ever do? Because that is also what this will do, in order to score points and stay relevent a faction/group/player will be forced to farm it. It doesn't encourage me to actually go out and greet the world it forces me to grab my friend, have a bit of conversation (assuming people dont fake these things which could never be fully enforced but i digress) and screenshot every little thing every single time. All without really interacting with people other than my friend. And under this system, i have to do this as often as possible...For the points.

And kind of in agreement with Xorena a little bit here, but for years a big thing has been how overstretched dm's can get. How does this level of bookkeeping where they have to manage every single rp action ever (real or fake) and assign points to it going to alleviate that? And again, because of how the system works, farming it will absolutely be a requirement.

Forum rp is all well and good but it shouldnt have points or true ingame effects to it. It should only act as some supplemental thing in order to maybe draw attention to something at best. And encouraging people to post stuff is fantastic, but making it a requirement for farming purposes will just lead to ultimately shallow circumstances with no real story behind it.

"it can be gamed" versus "it gives zero RP" is very big difference. Almost everything on this server can be gamed easily. Whether people actually do it and if such behavior is prevented by DMs and other players is what makes difference.
Events that happened in public are already documented in various RP threads as people who performed such events want others to know it happened. I don't see any difference in reading "Guild A performed the patrol over such an area making sure to clean all the bandits and dangerous wildlife" from "A group of adventurers did X and returned in Y state". It's a normal part of RP that it goes to forums so people who didn't participate can know the news.

Once again, some of these activities directly imply other non-guild people should be involved to be successful. There is no sense to give RP points for patrolling empty space and there is no reason to gain RP points for in-faction trade.

I don't see tremendous levels of bookkeeping to be performed with this. Simply writing "Guild A patrolled X zone 3 times in recent 3 months" is not a big deal to write or maintain. A single google sheets document can have tracks of all server guilds activity without going over like 100 rows of space.
"Farming RP points" sounds quite odd. With currently introduced system, a guild needs to perform 2 patrol actions per three months in order to maintain their lvl 1 outpost. That's a super low amount of RP to maintain for 3 months for a group of 3+ people. People generate more RP daily and weekly even without specific goal of maintaining outpost.

From your posts, i can understand your concerns, but can you please actually suggest something constructive as any feature of this server is a subject to be gamed and exploited while we still have and use them.

[Wolfshear]

Outside of the trade activity theres no implication for other involvement at all. And if it can be accomplished without other players it will be. And almost all of these can be faked entirely for that matter...But even if they arent, people would do whatever they have to to acquire these points. They will be forced to in order to stay relevent/competitive.

As for something "constructive" its back to my origional point. None of this should be based upon ooc points or even antyhing on the forums. It should be based purely on ingame things that are visible and actually confirmable and a longer form narrative over a longer period of time. Rather than screenshots/documentation that are next to impossible to actually confirm reliably.
And as earlier stated forum stuff should only be used as a supplement to draw attention at best, not have some outside point system attached to it.

It should be about a longform narrative between everyone with stories and hell local politics not some ooc resource management that can be technically unrelated to an objective.

[Rhifox]

It should be based purely on ingame things that are visible and actually confirmable and a longer form narrative over a longer period of time. Rather than screenshots/documentation that are next to impossible to actually confirm reliably.

How do you make in-game things visible and confirmable without documentation? Currently, the only way to do that already is by posting rumor/RP threads, sending in stuff to DMs, etc. Anything you RP in-game that isn't directly witnessed by a DM (and sometimes, even if it is) but isn't recorded on the forums might as well not exist, because no one will remember it in a month without the paperwork backing it up.

The point of this system was not to change how RP for influence is already done, but to instead provide a clear mechanism for how that in-game RP can be translated to actual influence.

The fact is this. Current asset rules do not allow guilds to achieve in-game influence. Any examples of in-game outposts that currently exist were done outside of any rules and technically illegal and can even be (and in some cases have been) accused of favoritism towards certain guilds. The goal of the outpost system was to provide a framework for guilds to create more such locations without the current hassle it requires (which involves a lot of back and forth between the players and DMs as they argue about whether or not it's fair to allow X guild to have Y in-game assets, often ending up in an answer of 'no, you can't do that').

The current system does not allow outposts at all. It pretty much leaves the guildhall as the end-game of player efforts and all other gains are limited entirely to offscreen assets. This leads many guilds to essentially wither and die after they get their guildhall because they've achieved everything they can achieve.

Current rules do not allow any kind of map control, period, and any examples of spreading of guild influence on maps have been "bonuses" that are done outside the rules. This is not conducive to a healthy system where everyone understands what they can do to achieve what progress.

Another goal from this system was to provide a level of logistics. To ensure that the more influence a single guild has, the more difficult it is for that guild to achieve more. Each outpost being worht a certain amount of points means that for every new outpost (or upgraded outpost) a guild wants to work towards, the amount of work required becomes harder to reflect the stretching of that guild's resources.

It should be about a longform narrative between everyone with stories and hell local politics not some ooc resource management that can be technically unrelated to an objective.

DMs remain in charge of what activites give what points. If something is unrelated to the objective, or is clearly a nonsense post meant to just farm points with limited effort, then why should it award progress towards the objective?

[Wolfshear]

Are we really going to change the server into what will really just amount to blindly running dailies on an mmo? Its rewarding people for keeping everything entirely in house.

There shouldnt be some arbitrary ooc mechanic or points attached to anything. Anyone gaining anything should come as a result of longer form work over months if not years. "Documentation" as I said should draw attention at best to things ingame, Not be the definitive deciding factor.

[Rhifox]

Are we really going to change the server into what will really just amount to blindly running dailies on an mmo? Its rewarding people for keeping everything entirely in house.

There shouldnt be some arbitrary ooc mechanic or reward attached to anything. Anyone gaining anything should come as a result of longer form work over months if not years. "Documentation" as I said should draw attention at best to things ingame, Not be the definitive deciding factor.

This is not how the system works. You send in a request once every three months going 'we're trying to work towards X, here is the work we've done to achieve it', with documentation of what works has been put towards it. That work is then valued and progress towards the objective is calculated.

This is not some 'you must post daily in order to farm points!' and if that's the impression people are getting from it, then clearly we need to work on how the system has been phrased as that is not the intent. The intent is that people continue to RP as they have been, just that there can now be a clear value attached and visible changes to the world that can be attained through that RP.

[Hoihe]

Could the "Opposition" system be refined perhaps?

Currently, you can oppose another faction by simply being more active in an area, rather than have it be a test of organisation and skill.

Thus, I propose something akin to Fallen London's "Social Actions" that were implemented after Chess/Sparring was removed. https://www.failbettergames.com/new-social-actions/


The gist of it:

Faction A approaches the DM team with intent of initiating an action on Faction B: Buying out all local resources, bribing bandits to attack their supply lines, spreading malicious rumours to supplies that make logistics harder to maintain. And more things in this vein.

These actions cost Activity Points to implement, and are not recovered.

Faction B is informed of this, and they can choose to ignore (lose equal activity points as opposing faction invested), or challenge it.

A successful challenge avoids faction B losing any resources. A partially succesful challenge costs them half the investment A made.

Exceptional setting up of the action by faction A should make it exceptionally difficult to perfectly challenge it by faction B. Partial success would be possible still with decent effort, but the effort and skill must be matched for perfect challenge.

Thus, good and thoughtful manoeuvering is awarded, and interaction is created.

Edit: A perfect challenge could even earn activity points

[Wolfshear]

Except all of that "Documentation" can be easily farmed and exploited and be accomplished without actually interacting with anyone outside whatever clique said player happens to be apart of. Posing for screenshots should not be what effects change. Taking five minutes to write something on the forum should not be what effects change. We should push people to actually be inside the game not posting things here for points. Especially when all of it can be enitrely faked. You should be able to use the forums to supplement rp and draw attention to things you are doing yes, so that it can then be observed ingame and confirmed explicitly.

And I fundamentally disagre we should have any kind ooc point system in general when all of it should and could be done through narrative and story sharing.
As it stands now if I want to accomplish anything I have to do months of rp with a huge amount of players that generates rp with a huge amount of players.
With other players having the ability to fight it every single step of the way. To counter me narratively in some way, to outwit me to do any number of things to block it through rp.

With this kind of system i could cut out all of that rp and just score points oocly without involving anyone else at all. Just keep to my own and never have to really engage anyone. Theres no slow build up of social rapport or influence its just do x activity gain y number of points. I dont have to weave my way through stories and rp just do some writeups and post some screenies, rp with my own crew at best. Kaching

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Except all of that "Documentation" can be easily farmed and exploited and be accomplished without actually interacting with anyone outside whatever clique said player happens to be apart of. Posing for screenshots should not be what effects change. Taking five minutes to write something on the forum should not be what effects change. We should push people to actually be inside the game not posting things here for points. Especially when all of it can be enitrely faked. You should be able to use the forums to supplement rp and draw attention to things you are doing yes, so that it can then be observed ingame and confirmed explicitly

So your argument is that because people cheat, the system cannot work as intended?

I agree. People cheat, and game systems all the time. It's a sad truth, but a real one. But that should never stop us from trying to create new ways for people to work within the system as intended and do better. If I believed that the entire server would try to game this system and 'win' purely for the sake of winning, I wouldn't be here. But I think you're missing the point.

Is it possible for someone to lie to the extent that the entire DM team is duped? Sure. Is it likely? Not really. I hate to say this, but we do investigations all the time into cheaters, and more often than not we catch quite a few. What's more, we're very aware of the amount of work that goes into a documentation of an IG activity. I'll post some examples of a good/ok/bad activity documentation later on, but it's why we have our discretion not to credit activities as we see fit.

Post a screenshot with a pose? Probably not going to get any points.

Post a log with screenshots? That'll get some points.

Write an RP post with screenshots and logs, or have multiple guild members write about an event in a collaboration? Will definitely get points.

We're not idiots. We know when people are faking it, generally. But that's not what's important, here. If for every five guilds, one is putting in an effort to dupe us while the other four are doing it right? That's a win, because the other four are generating roleplay for the server. They're the ones actually benefitting, because the whole point of the system is to create more roleplay.

That's really all I'll say about it. I like the constructive feedback, so keep it coming!

[Steve]

With this kind of system i could cut out all of that rp and just score points oocly without involving anyone else at all. Just keep to my own and never have to really engage anyone. Theres no slow build up of social rapport or influence its just do x activity gain y number of points. I dont have to weave my way through stories and rp just do some writeups and post some screenies, rp with my own crew at best. Kaching

The Outpost System started…yesterday, if I read it correctly. But no “results” can be requested until Jan. 2020.

So, if what you say is truly going to happen, I ask you to start doing it now, and until January, to prove your point in reality.

And if your point(s) is proven, as you say and by what you do, I think the the Staff would probably agree on the negative outcome, and rightly change this system (or eliminate it, should you prove your point).

But without proof of actually being able to game the system as you say it can be done, it is only a worst opinion for the worst outcome possible.

And equally, the best opinion for the best outcome is currently equally valid, until proven otherwise (or one way or another).

I’m not saying you are right or wrong Wolfshear, but proof is in the pudding!