Concern on the new guild outpost system.

[Wolfshear]

No my arguement is that I find some ooc point system mechanic to go against everything narratively and should not exist.
Everything should be purely in rp and ingame. And I absolutely disagree this will create roleplay, it actively encourages and rewards one to stick to their own.

These kind of ooc mechanic decisions are straight up horrifying to me.

[Hoihe]

OOC point mechanics are great for simulation. And a persistent world's power is simulation, not narrativism.

[Rhifox]

We will likely run this for one or two cycles (so 3-6 months) to get a feel for how receptive people are to it. If after that time there are still concerns and problems have arisen, we can pull it and return to the drawing board.

And of course, we are always interested in hearing player feedback and looking for ways that we can do things better. Our intent here is not to chnage how RP or influence is done from how it already is, only to provide some real and clear in-game impact from that RP, to give people a clear direction they can work towards to progress their guild's interests.

This also, of course, only concerns physical locations and map control in-game. Non-outpost influence will continue to work as it always has, and will affect things like where outposts can even be set up (elves would have to do an awful lot of strange RP to get the chance to make an outpost in the Enclave, for example).

[Shadowspinner70]

People should consider that even though Wolfshear is the most vocal opponent of the point system, he is not the only opponent. Personally, it doesn't matter much to me either way, as much as I'd rather it be entirely IC; however, I'd like to point out alternatives brainstormed and a few other things.

First off! It's come to my attention that people already are drawing up plans to game the system. Y'all think it's not gonna happen but if you give someone an inch, they take a mile. And the moment I get a screenshot of actionable plans is the moment it's getting reported to DMs, admin, whoever. So yes, Steve, it's only been a day, but people are already coming up with this or that after a day.

Second, why not have it be an IC gold sink? Start off with a lump sum, then pay however much weekly depending on size and complexity, and if you fail to pay, you lose it and need to get it again (with said lump sum)? On top of that, you need to be in there for at least 5 minutes, once a week?

Why not remove the "assets must be offscreen" aspect of rules? Because the way rules are right now, outposts are certainly illegal. Several assets some guilds already have are illegal. One could argue guild halls are illegal. Make assets physical things in the guild that decay and can be maintained or taken, and those assets are used to maintain the outpost?

This crafter makes wood. This one makes stone. This one makes glass for this furniture or that window. You put these things, made from PC crafters or bought from an NPC, in storage or in your inventory, and you use them on a useable section to maintain the place. You let the outpost deteriorate enough? You lose it. Someone else can take it.

This combines with crafting and allows guilds to pick and choose crafters. Proper crafting guilds who exist purely to supply other guilds.

I'm not here to decry anything, like I said. It legitimately doesn't change much for me, but I know this changes the entire playing field for others. So, to point some things out and post alternatives. This system's greatest merit is it's trackable. The second greatest merit is it gets more folk to use the forums, which our mod team has been encouraging the best we can.

[Azroth]

My main and only true concern that keeps coming back to mind about this is....

In what capacity would the work load to DM's increase, and by what volume is the increase?

Right now, things very easy slip through the cracks and words like: "oops sorry" and "I didn't know." are not good excuses, in some scenarios.


If there was some way to minimize the human error and other issues that come with it, I would love to see that.



And yes, any system can be gamed or even abused using it wrongly rather than what it's intended for. This server has a few of them as it where. Some even regarding permadeath, and other aspects of PvP and much more.

Systems are never flawless and there always will be some downside for an upside.

[Planehopper]

I am confused by the hesitancy.

This doesn't change what is already happening, it simply codifies it.

Right now a guild can RP their ass off, include multiple guilds across months of RP and end up with nothing.

Right now a guild can do very little, and somehow walk away with legions of troops and multiple control points.

There is a discrepancy right now and this fixes that. It requires proof of action and requires consistent application of rules to everyone.

As far as workload for the DMs it changes little. Right now as a guild if I want an asset request I have to prove the RP, submit for review, and hope they agree with what I've done. And then I have to wonder why my results aren't the same as others.

In the new system, if you want an outpost you have to prove the RP, submit for review, and both parties are confident that requirements are known and consistent.

There is no extra gaming the system than is already present or possible. There is no lack of RP more than what is already possible. I assume DMs will evaluate the logs/screens/forum RP in the same manner as they always have. Why wouldn't they?

We hear so many people complain about how things are and how things work. This is an attempt to apply what already happens in a consistent manner.

[Steve]

Right now a guild can RP their (hiney) off, include multiple guilds across months of RP and end up with nothing.

Right now a guild can do very little, and somehow walk away with legions of troops and multiple control points.

And let's not forget the individuals attempts—as in non-guild affiliated "work" though perhaps faction related—that goes nowhere!

Now, it makes a boat load of sense—to me at least...—that Guilds and somewhat Factions can funnel group as well as individual RP interests toward actual IG outcomes. That's nice.

But is also explicit in the wording of the Outpost System is that this doesn't give any single Guild more IG power, but does give the Guild some RP power, and definitely some cred.

What is even BETTER is that said RP Power earned/granted/etc., can not only dissolve over time and lack-of-use/upkeep, but can also be RP taken away! By the Gods, that gives so many avenues to empower conflict/intrigue RP without resorting to bullshit PvP mechanics.

How can an RP'er in the wonderful cruel and conniving and usurping Forgotten Realms sandbox not be interested in this? I think this Outpost System is a solid initiative towards furthering RP beyond "getting to lvl 30 and then campfire chats until the ToT comes home..." system we currently have.

[Alexander Holgart]

My 50 cents on the matter:

I am generally for systems with less rules, systems in which player ideas conflict less with an existing structure.

That is the reason why I prefer tabletop games with more essential rules compared to the chaos of 3rd edition D&D.

I don't really like the taste of this thing but I wont judge until I see it in action, we will see how it plays within the community.

[JIŘÍ]

It will allow ad hoc groups to resurge in activity, do a thing, shine bright like star few months, and then decline...with players to move on another enticing project. With the things they have done being undone by another group of players.

Instead of forcing people to stick to their characters a year worth game play to get anything, and then once are incative the remannts still being ig (aka guildhouse).

[Azroth]

This doesn't change what is already happening, it simply codifies it.

This is why I am not overly vocal about this myself, we are all doing the same things who play on the server here, with a slight twist.

While I may have my doubts in between due to some issues past and present that keep cycling. Some stuff I didn't mention here...

That aside, I more or less had expected that if the system has to many issues over time the staff would pull the plug on it.



One thing I don't get is; how does this system stop others from getting Roleplay and interactive between others? It doesn't. In fact in some conflict scenarios when push comes to shove in some contested areas of influence, people would be urged to counter that, and that gives two parties the ability to interact with each other.

I don't get how this somehow ruins others roleplay and even chances of RP.

[yyj]

RP will die when people stop rping, systems can be fuel for it to live or burn but I don't know in practice.

What I know is that this system will have people doing everything to "win at rp" and it will cause chaos.

The playground gets bigger now and people can earn points to get a sand castle, it's something neat and it seems to me it takes inspiration from certain other games where this is succesful.

Like with everything, cannot make all people happy but perhaps compromises can be made.

But like I have to say some things, most important is that a system using the greatly imbalanced, buggy and abused PvP system of this dated game. While it's nice that non PvP options exist, the fact that such mechanic is considered as an rp like this to happen is like rolling dice on a hill.

Another thing is how this will affect morale on players as that factor has led to drive people away in the past and like we all seen before guilds live and die fast sometimes or remain on life support for a long time and this system will play on this.

Another problem is that it seems this work of keeping track of IG and forum stuff, what happens if a DM missed a post or if ir gets buried under the millions of requests they have?

I see that many times DM team says they are understaffed...this will just add more workload for DM team of a system that they may or may not like but needs to be done periodically much like a job.

It remains to be seen how succesful this experiment is, but I recommend people to tailor expectations based on how other system implementations have worked in the past.

[Xorena]

What I know is that this system will have people doing everything to "win at rp" and it will cause chaos.

Hate to say it but "win at RP" at all costs already happens. It sounds like, based on what Shadow is saying, the DMs are on the lookout for this already.

Another problem is that it seems this work of keeping track of IG and forum stuff, what happens if a DM missed a post or if ir gets buried under the millions of requests they have?

DMs would not have green lit this if they didn't have a way to tally it up. Apparently they only do this once a quarter at the very least?

[AgentOrange]

As I understand it, this is a system in place to rectify the trend of guilds dying out shortly after they acquire a guild hall, and then said guild hall sits empty with little to no use. Let's ask ourselves why this happens? Why do guilds lose steam and go defunct? There could be OOC drama, or key members just get busy IRL (or lose interest) and don't pass the torch, or the guild runs out of things to do. It seems this system is designed to fix the last part, guilds running out of things to do.

Except not in the right way. I'm with Wolfshear on this one. It just seems like some arbitrary system to accrue points and protect your stronghold. If the staff wants to give guilds things to do, it ultimately falls on the DMs to provide plot hooks, and respond to requests in a reasonably timely fashion, across the board; rather than just focusing on the same few factions over and over. This proposed system is a band-aid that does not solve the root problems.

[Bobthehero]

Seconded... well thirded the above and the OP

Furthermore, I think it'll run the risk where a larger-conglomeration of guilds teams up to stiffle progress from other factions, who may not be in a position to team up with as many allies, where the big group cycles who gets to work on their Outposts, and who spends points nullifying others progress, resulting in a situation where a big group decides who gets to progress and who is limited to a GH.

It has happened in the past, where several factions met up to offer various support against the Zhentarim, and I just think a system like the one presented will end up enabling such a huge alliance to target faction and block them from making progress.

[yyj]

Adding more systems on top of a broken foundation isn't wise but what do I know.