Half-drow on the surface.

[DaloLorn]

So, we've gone from strawmen to slippery slopes?

To be fair: We're not going to see a change. But I prefer the honesty of a straight-up "we don't want this on our server" to these haphazard justifications with which you fail to shut people down.

[JIŘÍ]

So, we've gone from strawmen to slippery slopes?

To be fair: We're not going to see a change. But I prefer the honesty of a straight-up "we don't want this on our server" to these haphazard justifications with which you fail to shut people down.

I am with you on that if people on both sides quit beating each other with lore and seeked practical and pragmatic reasons for and against it would allow for finding middle ground that would or could work for both sides.

[Steve]

...fail to shut people down.

Imho, it should not be seen as against people, but support/challenge/critique/bolster(ing) of ideas and/or concepts.

When you write it this way, you setup a personal take, which puts a bad spin on having ANY dialogue over ANY issue.

[Ghost]

Less antagonising and more friendly discussion, please.

[Rhifox]

None of this region talk even matters. Region is about where you come from. It is not some cage dictating the only places you're allowed to be. Half-drow generally come from Dambrath or the North. But occasional half-drow can be encountered anywhere. They're just rare.

And again, if we're going to be talking regions limiting what should be here... aasimar come mostly from Mulhorand and the other Old Empires. That's even further away than Cormanthor and Dambrath. Yet we've got a million aasimars.

And even IF Graypeak Mountains is what is meant, that area being the Savage North, it would probably be argued a "why wouldn't Half-drow go to Soubar..cause Steve, there are even full blooded Drow there on a regular basis!"

My answer is still then the Canon Lore of it: Half-drow would be quickly murdered by both THOSE Drow, and by all the rest of the PCs/NPCs there, regardless of Alignment. Because THAT is Canon Lore.

No canon lore says every random person is a murder fanatic. Especially in a place like Soubar, where no one gives a (do-me) about silly things like race. It's a place of outcasts and travelers, the exact kind of place you might find those rare half-drow that exist in the world.

And drow are not actually super common in Soubar. And even if they were, let them RP it. If they see a half-drow there, let them actually try to murder them! Why limit RP? Then again, the kind of drow who might actually be in Soubar are likely outcasts from drow society themselves - Eilistraeens, surface Vhaeraunites, miscellaneous other rejects, etc, not Lolthites. So why would they care?

Not every person in Faerun is a psycopath. The game setting has always supported lone exceptions and wanderers (heck, that's why the games offer so many races as available PC races, because adventurers are exceptions as a rule). The general response is more often discrimination and shutting of doors. Making outsiders feel unwelcome. But there's always room for rare individuals to work their way into good graces. Again, 2e drow lore specifically says there are some successful drow merchants in Waterdeep, and there's not a single published list of laws that I know of that explicitly bans any race from any city.

One should consider how power dynamics play into things like discrimination. Even predators don't attack rival predators on sight. They threaten, they intimidate, they act cautiously, but they try to avoid fighting because fighting is dangerous. Random farmer is not going to attack a drow or half-drow or even an orc on sight. They might chase them off, tell them to get lost, but unless that character tries to actually force their way into their homes, ignoring the warnings, that farmer isn't going to risk a confrontation they could very much lose. Murder of discriminated-against peoples is more often to happen with mobs, or groups of toughs in quiet alleyways where they feel they have an advantage. Anything that ensures that personal risk is low. Ergo, attacks happen most often against a person that is settling in an area for a length of time - enough time for people to start making plans, getting organized, building anger. But this also gives the opportunity for the discriminated target to make friends in high places that can protect them from the mobs.

In short, interactions should be much more extensive than just 'me see half-drow, me murder!'. There is great potential for fun in playing an outcast, in being a target for discrimination and hate.

This the thing I hate about all these OOC rules. They're not helping RP, they're limiting it, by strangleholding RP options through out-of-character means instead of in-character ones. If you want half-drow to be hated everywhere, then it should be through IC hatred. The only valid OOC rule IMO is making them application only. I'd support that, personally. I would love to impose application-only rules for rare races. But it should be for all rare races, not half-drow only, because this is a broader problem than just half-drow.

Oh, also.

The half-drow are outcasts in all societies. The drow loathe them, killing their parents. Other elves pity
them and seek to kill them to end their suffering. All other races fear them because of their drow heritage.
Although not all half-drow are evil, they tend towards neutral evil due to the fact that so many hate them,
they see the world as a terrible place where they must defend themselves at every corner. Many half-
drow are suicidal or at the least put themselves into harm’s way more times than necessary.

The fact that elves are considered a Good-aligned race with evil shit like this makes me laugh. "Ah yes, this suicidal outcast hated by everyone, I pity them so. How could they ever live such a cruel life? Let's kill them to end their suffering." That's super evil.

[Rain]

But let's just imagine Half-drow are allowed as a choice for Surface spawning. Where would those Players go to interact with other Players, where would they go to "get involved" in plots, campaigns, RP? How would it affect the rest of the Playerbase when, as per Canon Lore, 99% of other PCs from whatever Race/Background would very, very likely and quickly KILL any Half-drow they encountered, anywhere on the Server? How would the Half-drow player feel about being murderated time and time again, in 99% of encounters? I'd argue not good. So then Players of Half-drow would start arguing that their Half-drow good aligned PC was being treated unfairly, probably both IC and OOC. Then the drama starts. And then Half-drow players along with those Surface PC players who "feel bad" that their OOC friend can't join in the fun with their "evil" Race Half-drow PC, start artificially RPing "acceptance," then BOOM!, we are accepting Half-drow at the dinner table, because of artificial OOC politeness...which, imho, completely disrespects the Forgotten Realms canon lore.

Not entirely sure this is true. There are plenty of examples of people completely ignoring threats, hostility, demon-spawn, hell-spawn, undead, dark god worshippers, opposing factions, murderers, cat kickers in BG, etc. All because they know meta OOC that such character is either mechanically powerful or has a reputation that could land them in them in the (anti-RP zone) if they attacked said player. I have no doubt in my mind a power-built half drow would be left to their own devices like many other lore-accurate KOS races simply for the fact that people avoid PVP and or just want another body to add to the loot run efficiency. This already happens far to often and you see it all the time. Elves in parties with orcs, Black guards in parties with paladins, necromancers just seemingly in parties with well... anyone... (I can attest this personally).

Edit: This is by no means me saying im for or against this whole debate. Half-drow are cool. Don't see much of them if any at all anyway.

[Rain]

Yet we've got a million aasimars.

That wouldn't have to do with them being a mechanically op race that gets +2 WIS and +2 CHA which empowers 70% of all caster classes...

[Steve]

This the thing I hate about all these OOC rules. They're not helping RP, they're limiting it, by strangleholding RP options through out-of-character means instead of in-character ones. If you want half-drow to be hated everywhere, then it should be through IC hatred. The only valid OOC rule IMO is making them application only. I'd support that, personally. I would love to impose application-only rules for rare races. But it should be for all rare races, not half-drow only, because this is a broader problem than just half-drow.

Make it so then!

Look, in the past, it was HEAVILY RP'd to NOT tolerate Drow, at all. But then a DM with a Surface Drow got on the DM Team, and the way we "cater" to individuals because of OOC issues—like what Rain also wrote, both more, both less—caused a situation where the Environment did not uphold what Players RP'd towards, and a long degeneration of acceptance crept throughout the Server. Was it just IC or also OOC change? You tell me...but I do have an opinion!

Like, Tieflings. Or Plane-touched in general. They are played and dominate because a) statistical buff; b) it satisfies an OOC fantasy desire. And again, because the Environment does not visually, adequately, give a Player the sense of commonness from which our PCs stand out as exceptional, our PCs thus BECOME the norm.

Horns and tails the norm. Soon, Half-drow the norm. When we are looking at source material that says they should be RARE.

Make it seem rare. And then remove those OOC rules, and then let the chips fall where they may. I have no problem with CvC.

On a side note, in regard to Soubar:

This small trail town is located on the Trade Way south of Boareskyr Bridge. Often raided by goblinkin and bugbears, it's a summer tent town that shrinks to an armed outpost in winter. At its heart is the old stone ruin of a temple or abbey of Bane, known as the Black Abbey. Some folk believe it was once sacred to another god and was only seized by worshipers of Bane briefly. The ruins have yielded stones to build the rest of Soubar.

Folk not wanted in Triel or Boareskyr Bridge find their way here. This has made Soubar something of a hiring fair for brigands, evil mages, dopplegangers, wererats and other werefolk, mercenaries down on their luck, mind flayers, those bearing curses, and others not tolerated in most communities.
Fences for stolen goods are plentiful here. Scurrilous "bounty hunters" who kill, maim, or capture specific beings to order are also plentiful, as are dealers in slaves, information, poisons, chains and cages, sleep venoms, and exotic pets. Kill-trained pets cost twice the usual prices. I’m not (ahem) familiar with any names or details, of course.

What BGTSCC has for a Soubar does not entirely reflect it's Volo's Guide description. If you want to say the BGTSCC Soubar is custom, and that it SHOULD become custom based on Role-play by the Player base, then fair enough. I'm fully supportive of that.

But let's then also agree that role-play action shouldn't lead to permanent existence or permanent environment. Else...why isn't TOLERANCE IS TREASON absolutely held up by the same existing NPCs/courts/alliances as 9-10 years ago when it was actually canonized?

[Rhifox]

On a side note, in regard to Soubar:

This small trail town is located on the Trade Way south of Boareskyr Bridge. Often raided by goblinkin and bugbears, it's a summer tent town that shrinks to an armed outpost in winter. At its heart is the old stone ruin of a temple or abbey of Bane, known as the Black Abbey. Some folk believe it was once sacred to another god and was only seized by worshipers of Bane briefly. The ruins have yielded stones to build the rest of Soubar.

Folk not wanted in Triel or Boareskyr Bridge find their way here. This has made Soubar something of a hiring fair for brigands, evil mages, dopplegangers, wererats and other werefolk, mercenaries down on their luck, mind flayers, those bearing curses, and others not tolerated in most communities.
Fences for stolen goods are plentiful here. Scurrilous "bounty hunters" who kill, maim, or capture specific beings to order are also plentiful, as are dealers in slaves, information, poisons, chains and cages, sleep venoms, and exotic pets. Kill-trained pets cost twice the usual prices. I’m not (ahem) familiar with any names or details, of course.

What BGTSCC has for a Soubar does not entirely reflect it's Volo's Guide description. If you want to say the BGTSCC Soubar is custom, and that it SHOULD become custom based on Role-play by the Player base, then fair enough. I'm fully supportive of that.

This bit seems to support what I said. It explicitly says it 's a place for people not tolerated in most communities.

"This has made Soubar something of a hiring fairfor brigands, evil mages, dopplegangers, wererats and other werefolk, mercenaries down on their luck, mind flayers, those bearing curses, and others not tolerated in most communities."

But certainly, yes, our Soubar has grown quite a lot bigger than the Volo version of Soubar, since players have invested considerably in it.

But let's then also agree that role-play action shouldn't lead to permanent existence or permanent environment. Else...why isn't TOLERANCE IS TREASON absolutely held up by the same existing NPCs/courts/alliances as 9-10 years ago when it was actually canonized?

Is it not? It certainly feels to be, to me?

[JIŘÍ]

Enforcing no tolerance rule is a pretty crap and shitty rule.

Yiu talk that interaction should be done in IC.

But then you speak of a mass wide rule that would shut up ANY interaction with npcs and some Pcs as a rule instead letting it kn each individual npc, npc faction, or settlement leaders.

This is like some sort of schizofreny saying one thing and pushing exactly opposite.

The biggest pool of fun on rp server is supposed to be interactive role play. How such silly mass wide rules support that? They just turn every single pc forcefully into a given template leaving no room for development nor progress of a story.

[Anchor]

Horns and tails the norm. Soon, Half-drow the norm. When we are looking at source material that says they should be RARE.

Um, at most online, we are about 90 or so in a region(s) that have millions. We are rare.

[Steve]

The problem is still: someone will get their feelings hurt. And then drama.

I think it's easy to say "open up all doors; take away all OOC Rules," but at the end of the day, a lot of these OOC Rules are set in order to protect Players, and to guard against the drama that will inevitably creep up. But why you may ask?

Because we are all not friends, sitting around a table or via video chat, playing a game that was designed to be shared in person, face-to-face. Instead, we are playing a game where we can easily dismiss the other Players "at the virtual table," and this causes grief. Additionally, we are not playing a game that has direct support of our role-play, and thus it is easy to see how changes can benefit some, but not others.

The onus then lands on the Admins and the Head DMs to make a choice based on percentages. Is a 51% benefit actually a benefit to all?

[Steve]

Horns and tails the norm. Soon, Half-drow the norm. When we are looking at source material that says they should be RARE.

Um, at most online, we are about 90 or so in a region(s) that have millions. We are rare.

Sure. BUT WE DON'T SEE THAT IG, is what I'm saying here.

[JIŘÍ]

The problem is still: someone will get their feelings hurt. And then drama.

I think it's easy to say "open up all doors; take away all OOC Rules," but at the end of the day, a lot of these OOC Rules are set in order to protect Players, and to guard against the drama that will inevitably creep up. But why you may ask?

Because we are all not friends, sitting around a table or via video chat, playing a game that was designed to be shared in person, face-to-face. Instead, we are playing a game where we can easily dismiss the other Players "at the virtual table," and this causes grief. Additionally, we are not playing a game that has direct support of our role-play, and thus it is easy to see how changes can benefit some, but not others.

The onus then lands on the Admins and the Head DMs to make a choice based on percentages. Is a 51% benefit actually a benefit to all?

I am just curious, and now I mean it in friendly manner. You claim you have UD pc but you and some others are supporters of nearly all anti UD players mechanics.

So I need to ask you, what faction your UD pcs are active in? Have you helped to promote Zaufins efforts, Ilharas efforts, are you regularly active in Bregan? Or do you promote betterment of UD as some individual character actively engaging all factions?

Or are you one of those who join in make a loot run, don't reply to others and then log? Because if you are in first group then your support for these awknard rules that cripple play for those people totally don't understand.

[Steve]

I am just curious, and now I mean it in friendly manner. You claim you have UD pc but you and some others are supporters of nearly all anti UD players mechanics.

So I need to ask you, what faction your UD pcs are active in? Have you helped to promote Zaufins efforts, Ilharas efforts, are you regularly active in Bregan? Or do you promote betterment of UD as some individual character actively engaging all factions?

Or are you one of those who join in make a loot run, don't reply to others and then log? Because if you are in first group then your support for these awknard rules that cripple play for those people totally don't understand.

It reads to me that you're suggesting there is some "special" category of UD player if they are promoting Zaufin/Ilharas/Bregan agendas. Is that what you're stating?

And does it not make more sense, if we're bringing up some artificial category rights issue, that Surface PC players should have MORE reason to accept/deny the OOC addition to having Half-Drow spawn on the Surface?

Lastly, I do not understand how questioning the quality of the OP request in terms of Lore has anything to do with "crippling" play for players already in the UD, or being able to already play a Half-drow.

As has and is being brought up, this category of "rare" in terms of BGTSCC Server, is all f'd up. Be it Drow on the Surface, Half-drow on the Surface, the preponderance of Plane-touched, etc. Rare is in terms of the environment, is terribly impossible, because the game is so limited in actually creating a relative "true" environment (inability to have mass population of NPCs; inability to design areas that are true to the UD environment; etc.).

Lastly—and I'll truly leave THIS discussion with the following—the moment that Staff state clearly and unequivocally that the BGTSCC is based on the Forgotten Realms lore, but is actually custom and divergent Lore, and thus Players should expect and role-play with the current form of Lore and existence they find the Server in at the contemporary moment, furthermore expecting it to change whenever players, DMs or both make the effort through RP to change it via IC, IG game actions, I'll STFU.

Because that statement would essentially close to the door on discussions about Canon, source books, etc., when it comes to anything but mechanics (and even to an extent, that). Which would be fine with me. But until then...cya!