Crusader (again)

[Kaybrie]

Nothing in this post is probably dev-useful.

I've leveled crusader multiple times (to 30 even) wanting it to work, and each time I've found it generally meh.

Admittedly, my most recent time was as a Tiefling to 17ish but given it wasn't a CHA-focused paladin I feel like it still should have been doing work.

I dunno, I don't have much to offer in terms of suggestions though. Its defenses feel alright (good AC for a two-hander, but nothing else). And its offensive options are... again, maybe alright?

Maybe that's the problem with crusader, it's generally a very 'whelming' class. It'll get you where you want to go, but without anything interesting or exciting along the way. Which is something that most other builds, including fighter builds, can do.

And yes, I get that none of this is really grounds to change anything, just figured I'd throw my commentary on the pile.

[Xorena]

What is Crusader bringing to the table mechanically in any of these builds that make it a better option than not bringing it? There should be a reason you go "Hm, Crusader is the best choice here!" at some point, and not "Crusader is what I feel like playing so I guess however it is needs to be good enough."

But if people enjoy the Roleplay, many will pick inferior mechanics. As long as they are not too inferior (sad noises for Thayan Knight).

[Winterborne]

They shouldn't have to. You should be able to have your roleplay while also being mechanically good. Things (other than Commoner, anyway) being mechanically underwhelming on purpose because roleplay is attached should not be a thing.

[izzul]

maybe make it 20 lvls, so that people can use their creativity to add their own mixtures of 20/10 (like barbarian 20/Dervish 10)

or slim it down to 5 lvls like Thief Acrobat

[Steve]

https://nwn2db.com/build/?280161
https://nwn2db.com/build/?295385
https://nwn2db.com/build/?323053

You can also go with Paladin 18/WM 5/ fighter 4 / AK 3, Dragon Warrior is another worthy option.

Paladin 14/ fighter 12 / AK 4 is also obviously fine with a profusion of feats.

And ofc the FS with Paladin dip who ought to pick the crusader kit for a free weapon focus.

Is any of the options above not viable ? You can find those inferior to Crusader 30 and I would argue that it's most definitely a matter of taste if you're that blinded by the permanent Holy Sword reward at the end.

The third build is the only one that I would bother playing, because the first two have such terrible AC for BGTSCC, I know from experience it won't be fun. To me, and how I most enjoying playing against the content, I can't say they aren't viable, but they aren't enjoyable either.

Don't get me wrong, Val...I love the Crusader Kit. I'm even happier with the recent additions (though I didn't need them in my build, considering I found out how to use IG Items to cover what was given, but nonetheless a bump). I just wanted to see what your idea of "break point" was, and the examples you gave do not convince me that a Level 30 Crusader isn't the best way to go.

I agree with Winterborne that, at least based on your build examples, you can build far more interesting builds WITHOUT Crusader, and just dip 3/4 Paladin.

My own Crusader 30 gets these stats:
AC: 13 + 2 DEX (w/ +3 DEX) + 8 mith plate + 4 AC + 6 Crusader shield defense + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 4 dodge +1 OW = 46 (+2 IMA wand = 48; +7 Divine Shield = 55).

AB: 35 + 2 (w/ +3 STR) + 4 Epic Weapon Focus (via Crusador 21) + 5 holy sword = 46 (40 w/ IPA; +4 Gr. Heroism pot = 44)

DMG: 1d10 + 10 STR (1.5 * 7 w/ +3 STR) + 5 Holy Sword = 20 avg. (+ 12 IPA + 2d6 vs Evil (holy sword) + 3 WIS (Crusador bonus w/ +3 WIS item +14 EDM (for 14 rnds ) = 55 Crit x3

[Valefort]

Can you build me a 2 hander in heavy armor with higher AC without Crusader ?

[yyj]

What is Crusader bringing to the table mechanically in any of these builds that make it a better option than not bringing it? There should be a reason you go "Hm, Crusader is the best choice here!" at some point, and not "Crusader is what I feel like playing so I guess however it is needs to be good enough."

But if people enjoy the Roleplay, many will pick inferior mechanics. As long as they are not too inferior (sad noises for Thayan Knight).

The thing about crusader is that it doesn't offer anything to roleplay in fact losing spells and other abilities just detriments as the paladin spell list has a few rp spells.

Any paladin can do holy sword with spells I think that is the main issue of the class is that it asks for 30 levels while offering nothing big.

[Steve]

Can you build me a 2 hander in heavy armor with higher AC without Crusader ?

A champion of Corellon, maybe? Of the top of my head, this is only what comes up. Probably a Paladin 4 / MaA with Divine Shield gets there, or with Blackguard.

If you are however thinking non-buffed builds, I’m sure Crusader sits at the top there, but…who never utilizes buffs?!?

[Valefort]

If you are however thinking non-buffed builds, I’m sure Crusader sits at the top there, but…who never utilizes buffs?!?

Something like a class who trades its spells for permanent bonuses maybe ? That's what the Crusader is best at, that's what is offered to roleplay to be always ready and swinging 2-handed in heroic style, that's also the only paladin who doesn't need to shoot for 30 CL but can actually go for other routes like it was shown here. What else do you need, sparkles ?

[DaloLorn]

If you are however thinking non-buffed builds, I’m sure Crusader sits at the top there, but…who never utilizes buffs?!?

Something like a class who trades its spells for permanent bonuses maybe ? That's what the Crusader is best at, that's what is offered to roleplay to be always ready and swinging 2-handed in heroic style, that's also the only paladin who doesn't need to shoot for 30 CL but can actually go for other routes like it was shown here. What else do you need, sparkles ?

Puhleeze. Nobody in their right mind will fight without buffs. (... Says the guy who routinely does just that, occasionally even on PCs who can self-buff... but then, I'm a lazy cheapskate who refuses to use consumables and occasionally underestimates his opposition.)

[Steve]

If you are however thinking non-buffed builds, I’m sure Crusader sits at the top there, but…who never utilizes buffs?!?

Something like a class who trades its spells for permanent bonuses maybe ? That's what the Crusader is best at, that's what is offered to roleplay to be always ready and swinging 2-handed in heroic style, that's also the only paladin who doesn't need to shoot for 30 CL but can actually go for other routes like it was shown here. What else do you need, sparkles ?

You do realize I didn’t ask for anything except examples of what a “good” breaking point for a non-level 30 Crusader?

At least in this thread, and recently. The only improvement, of which I asked in the previous years, was a scaling of the Holy Sword cool down, but I do understand that would require a number of Feats replacement (and thus scripting work).

As you point out, this is why I like the Crusader so much, and why for me 30 levels is best, because of the constant +6 shield bonus, and of course a permanent Holy Sword, because…when my Crusading Paladin has to spend days in the Hells fighting devils, there is no room for resting…:



Excuse the shield! Lol.

[Valefort]

Fair, sorry got a little carried away in my rant !

Still I see such break points, with their own pros (more AC/DR/Damage (crit damage)/feats) but I don't really have better examples than the previous ones. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps making a lesser version of holy sword for Crusader (such as 1d8 bonus damage instead of 2d6) would convince you to not aim for it all the time ?

[Steve]

Fair, sorry got a little carried away in my rant !

Still I see such break points, with their own pros (more AC/DR/Damage (crit damage)/feats) but I don't really have better examples than the previous ones. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps making a lesser version of holy sword for Crusader (such as 1d8 bonus damage instead of 2d6) would convince you to not aim for it all the time ?

Lol. The pendulum swings!!!

Just focus on the sparkles, le homme!

[RedLancer]

Crusader is a great 4-level dip or a subpar 30-level investment. These "break points" aren't real; the moment you break into something else, you're just a poor version of a different class. In all 3 of the sample "break point" builds, the benefit of Crusader is eclipsed by a Brooch of Shielding. Weapon Defense doesn't exceed a Brooch of Shielding without full investment. Divine Shroud doesn't work without full investment. Crusader Strike needs full investment. Holy Sword requires full investment or its cooldown renders it irrelevant. Everything else is miming Fighter, but a Fighter gets more feats, damage options, and multiclass options that don't punish its growth.

Can you build me a 2 hander in heavy armor with higher AC without Crusader ?

Champion of Corellon, Paladin/Fighter/Breach Gnome?/Dwarven Defender/Cleric/FvS plus a Brooch of Shielding, Whirlwind Frenzy Barbarian

[Valefort]

Nothing prevents a breach gnome/ dwarven defender Crusader multiclassing, that's one of the examples I gave earlier. As for the brooch of shielding that's .. a buff, temporary and dispellable.

But ok, point taken, some would still buff despite playing a Crusader, as mind boggling at it sounds to me.

Would moving down the weapon defense feats so be enough to make those break points more attractive ?

1	Weapon of choice
2
3	Weapon Focus (for Weapon of Choice (automatically selected))
4
5	Power Attack
6
7	Weapon defense II
8
9	Crusader Strike
10	Indomitable Soul
11
12	Weapon defense III
13	Greater Weapon Focus (for Weapon of Choice (automatically selected))
14	Spell like ability Holy Sword, 10 minutes cooldown. Cast at caster level equal to Crusader's levels.
15
16
17	Weapon defense IV
18	Divine Shroud
19
20
21	Epic Weapon focus
22	Weapon defense V
23
24
25
26
27	weapon defense VI
28
29	permanent holy sword (Cooldownless SLA)