Crusader (again)

[Deathgrowl]

I would venture a suggestion that it isn't paladin (or crusader in this case) that is underperforming, but far too many things that are overperforming. The power creep over the last two-three years, both in items and PRCs has been rather staggering. The span between a reasonable RP build and ridiculously min-maxed a power build that is rarely truly RPed according to character sheet is ever increasing.

[DaloLorn]

I would venture a suggestion that it isn't paladin (or crusader in this case) that is underperforming, but far too many things that are overperforming. The power creep over the last two-three years, both in items and PRCs has been rather staggering. The span between a reasonable RP build and ridiculously min-maxed a power build that is rarely truly RPed according to character sheet is ever increasing.

This is a point that cannot be overstated. We need to narrow the power range a little.

[Valefort]

That issue will have its own thread in due time.

[Hoihe]

I would venture a suggestion that it isn't paladin (or crusader in this case) that is underperforming, but far too many things that are overperforming. The power creep over the last two-three years, both in items and PRCs has been rather staggering. The span between a reasonable RP build and ridiculously min-maxed a power build that is rarely truly RPed according to character sheet is ever increasing.

This is a point that cannot be overstated. We need to narrow the power range a little.

Narrowing the power range however should start with removing the need for the higher end of said power range, though.

Weak builds don't feel weak because "others do things better", but rather because they cannot really engage with the content they are supposed to well, engage with (according to recently implemented mechanics forcing them to engage with specific content only.)

[Steve]

That issue will have its own thread in due time.

*shivers in place from a mix of anticipation and terror*

[MrSmith]

I am following this thread with interest as I just made a Crusader, and thus far I am finding him a joy to play. Given the fact I have only played the build to the 13th level, my only constructive criticism is this... I find the 13 minimum wisdom to be punitive for a class without spell access since Paladins only requires 11 +3 wisdom for full spell progression Granted, Crusader does provide 1 - 3 Divine damage for 13/16/19 Wisdom at 10/20/30th levels. This, however, should be the incentive to invest in Wisdom, not a class prerequisite that is again punitive.

Cheers!

[Most Horrible]

Crusader requires 13 wisdom, which means that if you go for EDM, you will probably want to roll an Aasimar to get at least 16 in strength and charisma, and 13 in both Intelligence and Wisdom, for the Combat Expertise feats and the kit itself, and then you might look at 13 dexterity to get the most out of a Mithral Fullplate with that +3 Dexterity item. Thus all in all, Crusader kind of requires you to play as an Aasimar.

Now as for the matter of two-handed AC:

Gold Dwarf Barbarian 21/Blackguard 4/Battlerager 5. Battlerager gives +2 AC, and with Icetroll Berserker and Whirlwind Frenzy, Epic rage gives, +8 Natural Armor and +5 Dodge AC. Thus when you pit that against the Crusader's +6 AC, this evil banished Gold Dwarf gets +11 AC, and can get additional +4 extra AC from any Potion or Brooch of Shielding. Oh, and this Gold Dwarf can leave his wisdom ability score at 8 during character creation. Both builds go for EDM and Divine Shield.

And a while back I did actually try to make a Crusader in the JEGS server, Crusader gets Power Attack feat at Paladin level 6, but only after the level up screen, hence you cannot actually take Divine Might or Shield at Paladin 6, you have to wait for levels 9 and 12, or if you multiclass heavily, you need to take 7 or 8 levels of Paladin. Eight levels of Fighter give so much more to be honest, so if you are making a high strength build with 0 charisma modifier, there is no reason to go for a Crusader.

As for making a good Crusader 29 (Paladin 30) build, you need the following pre-epic feats: Divine Might, Divine Shield, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Extra Turn Undead I, Extra Turn Undead II, Extra Turn Undead III, and since you are likely playing as an Aasimar, spend an epic feat on Blindfight.

[DaloLorn]

I would venture a suggestion that it isn't paladin (or crusader in this case) that is underperforming, but far too many things that are overperforming. The power creep over the last two-three years, both in items and PRCs has been rather staggering. The span between a reasonable RP build and ridiculously min-maxed a power build that is rarely truly RPed according to character sheet is ever increasing.

This is a point that cannot be overstated. We need to narrow the power range a little.

Narrowing the power range however should start with removing the need for the higher end of said power range, though.

Weak builds don't feel weak because "others do things better", but rather because they cannot really engage with the content they are supposed to well, engage with (according to recently implemented mechanics forcing them to engage with specific content only.)

We don't actually disagree, you know.

Narrowing the power range - whether by buffing the underperformers or nerfing the overperformers (though I personally lean towards the latter) - allows us to more easily tune the content for the whole range, instead of a tiny slice of it.

[MrSmith]

Now as for the matter of two-handed AC:

Gold Dwarf Barbarian 21/Blackguard 4/Battlerager 5. Battlerager gives +2 AC, and with Icetroll Berserker and Whirlwind Frenzy, Epic rage gives, +8 Natural Armor and +5 Dodge AC. Thus when you pit that against the Crusader's +6 AC, this evil banished Gold Dwarf gets +11 AC, and can get additional +4 extra AC from any Potion or Brooch of Shielding. Oh, and this Gold Dwarf can leave his wisdom ability score at 8 during character creation. Both builds go for EDM and Divine Shield.

It is not my intent to derail this forum topic, but I have to ask. What is the advantage of taking five levels of Battlerager if you also aspire to get EDM and Divine Shield? Battlerager invokes a -4 penalty on all Charisma ability checks and Charisma-based skill checks, except for Intimidate. That's a four-round penalty. Ouch!

Cheers!

[Valefort]

And more importantly it's a bunch of short term buffs.

[Azroth]

assuming this is your kit you made out as a proposal idea, Vale.

I would like to request, without having to read through so much things about this kit from what others may say, to help for my own views, so I may have a fresh take...

What is your design philosophy behind the kit that made you want to do this?

And what did you have in mind first and foremost as the key factors to help compliment the existing Paladin Class?

In your own words of coarse.

And while I do find it rather neat as a concept in some ways, I also do find it some what lacking in the level gaps making it far more sexy to not go all in. And multi class, like god knows how many other class' and PrC's, which is the norm in nwn2.

I also would love to see a similar kit for evil devotion, that may or may not have the same draw backs as: Crusader loses access to: Spellcasting.

warrior of darkness is nice and all, but it would be nice to see a kit under fighter for flavor and more levels or other class that may be more appropriate giving a kit under pre req: evil
if at all possible!

1	Weapon of choice
2
3	Weapon Focus (for Weapon of Choice (automatically selected))
4
5	Power Attack
6
7	Weapon defense II
8
9	Crusader Strike
10	Indomitable Soul
11
12	Weapon defense III
13	Greater Weapon Focus (for Weapon of Choice (automatically selected))
14	Spell like ability Holy Sword, 10 minutes cooldown. Cast at caster level equal to Crusader's levels.
15
16
17	Weapon defense IV
18	Divine Shroud
19
20
21	Epic Weapon focus
22	Weapon defense V
23
24
25
26
27	weapon defense VI
28
29	permanent holy sword (Cooldownless SLA)

[Valefort]

The kit has existed for a couple of years already Azroth, the thread is about tweaks. It was also kind of a request : a 2 handing paladin without buffs, while all the other paladins rely quite a bit on their spellbook.

As for how it was designed it had to be inferior to a fully buffed paladin in every way as the bonuses were permanent. With all these constraints what was left was figuring out the AB/AC/damage progression and trying to spread them so that all reasonable multiclassing possibilities ended up roughly on par with going pure.

[Azroth]

The kit has existed for a couple of years already Azroth, the thread is about tweaks.

I saw it in the wiki but was unsure if it was live myself, given how unreliable the wiki is some days. thank you for the confirmation. Still re-learning the server some, again.

[Valefort]

Please fix or report things you're not sure about in the wiki, it will only get better with more collaborations.

[Most Horrible]

It is not my intent to derail this forum topic, but I have to ask. What is the advantage of taking five levels of Battlerager if you also aspire to get EDM and Divine Shield? Battlerager invokes a -4 penalty on all Charisma ability checks and Charisma-based skill checks, except for Intimidate. That's a four-round penalty. Ouch!

Cheers!

Please take note that Valefort requested a build that makes use of Heavy armor, hence, no need to raise dexterity ability score all that high in order to get the most out of that medium armor known as Mithral Fullplate. Base Dexterity in the range of 8-12 is quite fine to get the most out of any old regular +4 Full Plate. It really depends on what items you have available, but +2 or +3 to dexterity from some random item is not that unfeasible to acquire, so you can free up some ability points from Dexterity for both the Crusader and our Battlerager alike.

And yes, Battlerager comes with that -4 charisma penalty, but what you have to remember is that this -4 penalty is the same as just a -2 Charisma modifier penalty, which could be negated by drinking a simple potion of Eagle's Splendour, renamed as Dwarven Ale of course, or by wearing those +4 Charisma gauntlets sold in the corner of 'the Wide' in Baldur's Gate.

Now, in order to get the most out of this curious Dwarven Battlerager, you should try to aim for the base charisma of 22, which means that you will be sitting at charisma modifier of +6, which translates to +12 EDM damage for 12 rounds, and +6 Dodge AC for 6 rounds. A typical EDM build that has not been min-maxed to its bare bones will usually end up with a charisma modifier of +7 or +8, which would be +14 or +16 EDM damage for 14 or 16 rounds respectively, and either +7 or +8 dodge AC for for either 7 or 8 rounds. Thus, the damage, AC, and duration differences are not actually all that great.

Additionally, Tumble is a class skill for Battlerager, and by spreading the Battlerager levels throughout the 30 levels, one can easily max out Tumble skill without spending a feat on Able Learner. The free Extend Rage feat provided by Battlerager will not mean all that much, as you are likely using either a helmet or an amulet that grants both the Extend Rage and Extra Rage feats, but what absolutely matters is the fact that Battlerager gives you Powerful Charge and Dire Charge feats for free, and you can get [urlhttps://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Furious_Charger]Furious Charger[/url] as your background history feat to get +4 attack bonus instead of +2 attack bonus whenever you charge. There is that fear immunity. Some other minor perks, and finally, Battlerager gets that +2 AC, which kind of negates the 'lost' AC from Divine Shield due to the charisma penalty.

And truth be told, I do not know how experienced you are with EDM builds that make use of Divine Shield, but in my experience with characters that have charisma modifier of +7 or +8 usually tend to end end their fights before either ability runs out, but also before the next enemy is actually reached. This is something where the Dire Charge comes in, as it allows you to rush ahead by charging, get extra points of AB and Damage, and actually make your character a little bit more interesting to play.

What does sting, however, is the loss of two uses of Turn Undead, thus the Extra Turn Undead feats might actually look like a very sound investment. There is also a +4 club sold by the Epic merchants that comes with that feat.

Anyhow, Divine Shield feat could be dropped, because even without Divine Shield the Battlerager AC will match the AC of a +7 charisma modifier Crusader that makes use of Divine Shield. [ 4 (8 Natural Armor from Ice Troll Berserker) + 5 (Dodge AC from Whirlwind Frenzy) + 2 (Tumble 30) + 2 (Battlerager AC) = 13 ] and [ 6 (Crusader Shield AC) + 7 (Divine Shield) = 13 ]

Oh, and speaking of Barbarians, Barbarians get base 4 skill points per level, where as Paladins only get base 2. Thus a Barbarian character, will have far easier time spending cross-class points into a charisma based skill such as UMD, and 5 points into Spellcraft for that +2 Skill Synergy bonus, and our Battlerager will have enough UMD to make use of wands and items with class, race, or alignment restrictions.

Oh yeah, Battlerager and Blackguard for all intents and purposes also share their PRC feat requirements: Power Attack and Cleave.

So if we look at must have pre-epic feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Ice Troll Berserker, Divine Might... Thus four feats in total, which leaves you with three feats to spend as you please. Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Power Attack are some choices, as are things like Toughness, Steadfast Determination, Blindfight, Northlander Hewing, Divine Shield, etc... so you will have some leeway to customize a Battlerager to your actual needs. For example, you might not need take the Blindfight feat if you decide to make use of a Heartfire wand. Not to mention that as a Blackguard; you get your +6 charisma modifier to your saves, and well, Toughness and Steadfast are no longer technically required to boost up your will saves.

And don't get me wrong, it is not going to be a perfect build that can do it all, Barbarian 21/Blackguard 4/Battlerager 5 is just a build where a lot of different things and pieces just find their place.

Which brings us back to Crusader, because that is what this topic is about...

As for my suggestion to Improve the kit, how about it offers Powerful Charge and Dire Charge feats for free, you know, the same as the Battlerager PRC? Thus the Divinate Kit is based on spellcasting, the Cavalier Kit is based on high strength Shield Bashing, and thus the Crusader kit could be based about charging into battle, which at least would cater to my perception of what a Crusader should be doing.