Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[bharring]

Talos isn't evil, he's just misunderstood!

More seriously, it's more about "Agreeable with most parties" vs not.

I've played a NE wizard who got along fine with the "heroes" group. He was evil in that he was interested only in what's good for him. Which kept him on the "right" side of the law and arguments and trouble wand whatnot.

On the other hand, my main is a CN druid, who is not selfish or self-interested. He's excluded from tons (IC for good reason) despite being helpful and friendly. Because he serves an evil deity openly, and his goals are quite destructive.

Alignment is really just a guide for how to play your character.

[Azroth]

More seriously, it's more about "Agreeable with most parties" vs not.

that's part of what I said before, heck I play an NE sorceress right now who people seem to like IC for the most part in Bauldur's gate.

But you are missing the point, I am not sure if you are unaware or simply chose ignorance, I guess I need to be more blunt here: but there's a lot of bad blood that goes years back, trust issues from various older groups. That became the good vs evil segregation. And I refuse to entrain those whiners, who fail to even fix the problem IC, which matter of fact is and has been very fixable. They chose however to play it safe, and brute force things rather than place effort into meaningful plans that would be effective.

The fact there's years old IC that somehow between various groups led to bad blood and yet, nothing was done. Only complained about.

This is more than just Evil vs Good. This is people having an inability to cope with not getting their way. I am not hostile, just matter of fact here. Giving the lay out of the situation. And it is and has been a mess for years. And it just manifested from there. For choosing to not do anything.

[Planehopper]

Jumping in here to ask that we talk about ideas, and not people.

I am not sure how anyone can expect a resolution when we draw lines and then lob grenades from one side to another. Let's stop calling folks ignorant, whiners, untrustworthy, whatever. We bemoan the grudges of the past while we pass them down in our culture like ancient stories told around the camp fire.

How will that ever make it better? Please don't answer that. Just read the forum rules, analyze what you hope to accomplish, and then maybe post your thoughts and put a pin in it. There is little reason to argue back and forth with quotes and re-quotes if its all to say "but you're wrong and I am right". That doesnt fix anything. I don't want to moderate the chat, and neither do the other moderators, so let's keep this thing positive, eh?

So what actionable steps can be taken by all for the benefit of all? I think that's the real discussion that will actually make some change.

1) Work to fix the culture. From my perspective - playing evil in the most recent past with the Ebon Blade and intentionally trying neutral to maximize opportunities this go round - its less a good-evil thing and more an us-them thing all around. Cliqued up players and their characters that do it all, every time, in every arc, of ever story. There is a chasm now, that started as a gap, and that soon will be a gulf if we continue down this path.

2) I have found that our players are eager to RP with DMs (and thats about the extent of it), but not eager to RP amongst themselves. Very little interaction outside of their normal cliques, and from what I have seen on mains and on alt accounts - and being a little facetious here - its a lot of butt jokes and other inanity without a lot of meat. It seems to me that unless its a DM plot, an active DM Campaign, or directly impacting their character, RP interaction is a pretty bland, milquetoast affair these days. I honestly dont have a fix-all for it, but it goes far beyond the good-evil RP arguments. This is an RP server. We need to be ok RPing with one another, on our own, telling our stories together. I know from experience it makes DMing a hell of a lot more fun to be in a position where you can ADD to the stories as often as you are forced to CREATE them. RPing is supposed to be collaborative, but somewhere along the way its been skewed to more transactional.

3) And to that end, I would encourage DMs to throw more one-time, spontaneous, unscheduled interactions. Not 'events' per say, but bringing NPCs to life, changing things up a bit, and requiring some RP from our players. I think these sorts of events (spontaneous grabbing for one offs) build a culture of players that believe RP is an all the time thing, and not just something to do when pre-requested and scheduled. I think the reliance on scheduling and requesting everything has created a sort of subconscious on/off switch for RP that has been detrimental to the overall status of RP.

And thats not a knock on anyone. I think we all do our best, and believe its for the better of the server. Even the newest of newbs here has probably been around the block a time or two. We are all in this together, but if we don't start acting like it the end will be here with a handful of people 'winning' in the end. A server in their perfect form. With no one else around.

[AsuraKing]

1) Work to fix the culture. From my perspective - playing evil in the most recent past with the Ebon Blade and intentionally trying neutral to maximize opportunities this go round - its less a good-evil thing and more an us-them thing all around. Cliqued up players and their characters that do it all, every time, in every arc, of ever story. There is a chasm now, that started as a gap, and that soon will be a gulf if we continue down this path.

2) I have found that our players are eager to RP with DMs (and thats about the extent of it), but not eager to RP amongst themselves. Very little interaction outside of their normal cliques, and from what I have seen on mains and on alt accounts - and being a little facetious here - its a lot of butt jokes and other inanity without a lot of meat. It seems to me that unless its a DM plot, an active DM Campaign, or directly impacting their character, RP interaction is a pretty bland, milquetoast affair these days. I honestly dont have a fix-all for it, but it goes far beyond the good-evil RP arguments. This is an RP server. We need to be ok RPing with one another, on our own, telling our stories together. I know from experience it makes DMing a hell of a lot more fun to be in a position where you can ADD to the stories as often as you are forced to CREATE them. RPing is supposed to be collaborative, but somewhere along the way its been skewed to more transactional.

3) And to that end, I would encourage DMs to throw more one-time, spontaneous, unscheduled interactions. Not 'events' per say, but bringing NPCs to life, changing things up a bit, and requiring some RP from our players. I think these sorts of events (spontaneous grabbing for one offs) build a culture of players that believe RP is an all the time thing, and not just something to do when pre-requested and scheduled. I think the reliance on scheduling and requesting everything has created a sort of subconscious on/off switch for RP that has been detrimental to the overall status of RP.

I think this nails it on the head, I 100% agree with these three points.

[Azroth]

1) Work to fix the culture. From my perspective - playing evil in the most recent past with the Ebon Blade and intentionally trying neutral to maximize opportunities this go round - its less a good-evil thing and more an us-them thing all around. Cliqued up players and their characters that do it all, every time, in every arc, of ever story. There is a chasm now, that started as a gap, and that soon will be a gulf if we continue down this path.

2) I have found that our players are eager to RP with DMs (and thats about the extent of it), but not eager to RP amongst themselves. Very little interaction outside of their normal cliques, and from what I have seen on mains and on alt accounts - and being a little facetious here - its a lot of butt jokes and other inanity without a lot of meat. It seems to me that unless its a DM plot, an active DM Campaign, or directly impacting their character, RP interaction is a pretty bland, milquetoast affair these days. I honestly dont have a fix-all for it, but it goes far beyond the good-evil RP arguments. This is an RP server. We need to be ok RPing with one another, on our own, telling our stories together. I know from experience it makes DMing a hell of a lot more fun to be in a position where you can ADD to the stories as often as you are forced to CREATE them. RPing is supposed to be collaborative, but somewhere along the way its been skewed to more transactional.

3) And to that end, I would encourage DMs to throw more one-time, spontaneous, unscheduled interactions. Not 'events' per say, but bringing NPCs to life, changing things up a bit, and requiring some RP from our players. I think these sorts of events (spontaneous grabbing for one offs) build a culture of players that believe RP is an all the time thing, and not just something to do when pre-requested and scheduled. I think the reliance on scheduling and requesting everything has created a sort of subconscious on/off switch for RP that has been detrimental to the overall status of RP.

I myself am unsure what we can do to fix, but save for trying to infect others in a more understanding and aware of actions and what is going on. And why. So it can be a fixable by those who seek it.

But all points made are good here.

As to #3 I did encourage going back to basics a long time ago.

Oh no, a thief just ran off with a coin purse and someone is crying out to catch them.

Oh no, a strange monster is causing some issues with the town, someone needs aid. It could have come from the grave yard and is now just roaming in between somewhere.

perhaps we just see some couple bicker in the background, not even a quest event just two fighting over lunch plans... then walk up to a few and ask for their take to help decide. just something. Doesn't need to be elaborate.

perhaps the guards are grumbling about some locals doing crime, and asked some folks if they seen such a person.

I think for some reason, right now- DM's are largely caught up in planning big and far to over stretched in maximizing elaborate stuff, that is hard to schedule and even fit in some groups together. And I do appreciate Dreamer's attempts with the Hag stuff in dropping things for a number of sides to get them all roped in, it's just hard at times to fit time frames for players, some days to in fact collaborate. I never been big on DM events, as I tend to make my own trouble some days instead, lol. But others do like them.

[Tekill]

I think evil (doing evil acts) is definately out of the question on the suface, for sure. Except maybe on a very short lived basis.

Even Sshamath is full of the nicest well behaved bunch of evil beings in all of the Underdark!

A few bad apples made it so we cant have good clean fun. Or is it, a few good apples made it so we cant have bad fun...?

Well either way, we cant have nice/naughty things, because of a history of various kinds of abuse.

It is a sore spot for me as I feel we miss out on a lot of fun.

But it is not the end of the world.

Since I have stopped trying to RP evil aligned characters I have had lots of fun exploring the other alignments. How was I to know a paladin can be a lot of fun to play!?
And an important discovery: every alignment is very likely to be morally questionable in thier own way.
On this server it is much easier to create conflict through the actions of a non evil alignment character because your are not being automatically branded untrustworthy.

If you want to rock the boat, just roll up a charcter with strong convictions and a cause to fight/struggle for.

[Most Horrible]

If you want to rock the boat, just roll up a charcter with strong convictions and a cause to fight/struggle for.

Charisma ability score is many things in D&D; from looks, to strength of will, and even how imaginative your character is.

Thus roll a character with as low charisma score as possible, and give that character an all encompassing singular interest and that singular interest will provide a tangent for every interaction you can have in game. For example, a Dwarven Battlerager, who just wants to fight, so you can just go around picking a fight with whoever, and whenever. Or perhaps a Drunken Master whose next goal is about finding that next drink to have? Or how about a Dragon Slayer who is always on the look for another dragon to slay? In this regard a low charisma ability score can be a blessing in disguise, and when you have that singular goal in mind, the alignment of your character can determine how your character actually approaches that singular point of interest. And to be honest, when it comes to alignment: the Lawful and Chaotic side of things are far more relevant on this server than the Good and Evil aspect of a character. After all, if you team up with a bunch random characters to defeat some gnolls, whether you do so for Good or Evil reasons, the outcome is just less gnolls in the world until more spawn in. Thus when you interact with other characters, the Lawful and Chaotic aspect actually plays a far greater role, a Lawful character might demand certain party formation, while a chaotic character might dart off to check some corner on his own. Little things.

And once again: use the Homeric Greeting.

State your character's name, where your character is from, and either what he would like to be known of or is known for, and a single line you will actually offer other players a point to connect, to interact.

For example:
Bob of Luskan, Mercenary by heart, but not currently under employ.

Our previously mentioned Battlerager might challenge Bob to a duel, our Drunken Master ask if he has some drink with him, and perhaps our Dragon Slayer could rope him in to some goose chase adventure with promises of a dragon's hoard.




And the best part is that this kind of character creation and approach is great for alt characters, something anyone could do in order to just try something else.

But eh, you do as you do.

[DaloLorn]

2) I have found that our players are eager to RP with DMs (and thats about the extent of it), but not eager to RP amongst themselves. Very little interaction outside of their normal cliques, and from what I have seen on mains and on alt accounts - and being a little facetious here - its a lot of butt jokes and other inanity without a lot of meat. It seems to me that unless its a DM plot, an active DM Campaign, or directly impacting their character, RP interaction is a pretty bland, milquetoast affair these days. I honestly dont have a fix-all for it, but it goes far beyond the good-evil RP arguments. This is an RP server. We need to be ok RPing with one another, on our own, telling our stories together. I know from experience it makes DMing a hell of a lot more fun to be in a position where you can ADD to the stories as often as you are forced to CREATE them. RPing is supposed to be collaborative, but somewhere along the way its been skewed to more transactional.

This is something I'm unfortunately guilty of myself. I'm never opposed to random strangers trying to involve themselves in the affairs of my PCs (though depending on the PC and their current state of mind, you may want to exercise caution in doing so ), but unless they desperately, urgently need something that can't be covered by their friends, I'm not going to reach out and look for people. Add to this the fact that I'm growing increasingly sick of campfire RP, that I very rarely grind anymore, and that most of my character arcs are personal and/or winding down, and you have the perfect recipe for a clique... or a shelved character. (Or three.)

I don't have an answer to that, either. I think the DMs can help, by creating smaller mini-plots that can draw a group together, but I also think the players need to contribute, by coming up with reasons for that group to stay together after the DM plot is over. For Virin and Rinn, I'm unfortunately coming up short; the former seems to have something of a follower/loner mentality (depending on whether there's anyone to follow), and the latter is definitely just a lone wolf. Hard to keep them engaged in stuff beyond their now-departed inner circle of friends.

[Shadowspinner70]

I've been watching this thread for a while and thought I'd put in my two cents, since I've been in plenty of the table's corners.

When l'Orbb Glennen was active, the only time we really sought out to kill was with NPCs. We found someone on the bridge and they didn't wanna play ball, all they had to do was gtfo and enter Soubar or even bribe us. Half the time we were just scouting anyway. Half of our two kidnappings was OOC arranged from my understanding, and in both situations we left ample room for an escape. They head back home. They continue RP. That's honestly my goal if I ever play an outright evil character again that's not Azariah's brand.

I've had people ignore me because I'm playing a drow. Prominent players have skirted if not outright broken disguise rules while spying on me by disguising as their alt. The detail they missed? ...Their description. And I've avoided reporting it a couple months later because it just seems petty to do it now. At the end of the day, that's a them problem. And that them problem is a momentary issue for you now, but it's gonna be a bigger issue for them down the line, and I know they can do lasting damage to you anyway.

I also know that if an evil player did those same things, like breaking the rules or ignoring a paladin, there would be absolute chaos and in former administrations/DM Teams, there would absolutely be a ban. Someone earlier said old wounds haven't been closed and mistrust remains. And they're right. Just acknowledge stuff happened and let it run off your backs, but be vigilant for repeat behavior and report that. Sometimes you get into an argument and stuff simply comes out.

Try to empathize. Try to understand where they're coming from. Explain your thought process and emotions the best you can. If, in the end, they decide to rant and rave behind your back? Flip off the screen and move on with life. I know I'm still working on not letting some individuals live rent free in my head.

Now...

What I'd like to see is the status quo not being good. It shouldn't be. Iirc, most of the grand Dukes themselves aren't good. The status quo ought to be neutral and in the city's best interests, where both good and evil get to scrape to make the place overall good or overall evil before it shifts back. One huge way to do that is making the city dynamic rather than reactive, where the NPCs are seemingly waiting for the PCs to fix their issues.

Why isn't duchess Liia, good-natured woman she is, making a public proclamation to plead to her citizens that the tieflings that are being stoned and lynched are fellow citizens, for example? Why can't that noble who is so desperate to have his son returned hire the Zhentarim because he feels the good natured folk they pleaded to aren't moving fast enough? Or maybe one of the younger, scrapper nobles takes it to the thieves guild.

A dynamic, neutral world means that both "camps" have ample opportunity to take advantage of situations, and that the status quo does not favor a camp? It makes sense in lore, anyway; Baldur's Gate is the odd one out because it is more neutral, and as time progresses, the Fist themselves lean evil and have spies among the populace to maintain their supremacy. Certain gods also aren't banned from public worship.

Why can't the graveyard and its necromancers be Myrkul's wrath after his worship is banned in the Gate? Why can't they lobby to have him publicly worshipped again? Why were those gods banned from public worship anyway, when they're so important to the common man? We don't have Kelemvor yet. Jergal gave Myrkul the mantle to deal with the dead. Jergal is literally just the scribe. So why is the god who handles funeral rites banned? That's one thing that can be explored. What if one day, the Graveyard has a temple to Myrkul in it and the dead rise no more? However... under the temple, the dead still need to be culled, and that I'd where your adventurer fresh off the boat comes in.

In terms of a hub, honestly? Don't make a new town or city. Just continue growing Soubar.

[Steve]

And honestly if folk could have their ideal scenario, what would it be like?

While I'm going to offer my opinion in answer to the above, regarding Evil-minded PC role-play, it is easy enough to replace Evil with Good (because in general, and I'd hope, we players all want the same thing, in the end).

Players can accomplish a whole lot, amongst themselves, within role-play. Or, not. You can strive to accomplish very little, and just "be" in-character, and experience whatever happens, in-game. If you want to be social, you can just be social, in-character, without objectives "on the mind."

Though we can have a rewarding experience role-playing amongst ourselves, that being PCs among PCs, there is an undeniable limit, to that. Because there is the "whole world" that exists, the Server Environment, the Sword Coast as it were, filled with NPCs, that have a life—supposedly—and are doing things, and reacting to things, both in general/independently AND from our PC's actions, and simply, their said Being.

It is this limit, that requires the Dungeon Master, to be present, to be enlivening those NPCs, the Environment too, to be giving the Players a World to react with, react against, etc. etc..

Historically—and of course there are small instances of different occurrences...so I'm not saying 100% always and forever—campaigns and events are situations of there being a Very Big and Bad Evil X, and the PCs—regardless of alignment—are to "act" to and toward this situation. However, those avenues of "action" are and almost always one of against said Bad Evil.

And this is where BEING evil, gets to be a problem. On two points.

#1 - Many times, the Evil-minded PCs would rather "help" or align with the Big Bad Evil X. Yet, the WHOLE PURPOSE of the Big Bad Evil X is for the Good-minded Characters to overcome. And 99.9% of the time, they do. Sure, there are "casualties," and losses on side good, but simply put: Evil never wins. Just look at the last 10 years of Server History!!! Thus, those Evil-minded PCs that associate should be prepared to lose. What Player wants to lose all the time?!? And I do believe, with a few small exceptions over the years, this has been poorly addressed/supported/helped-to-be-fun by the DM Team. And this needs to change, immediately, and show itself being different for some time, for Players to trust in the "relationship."

#2 - Evil-minded PCs are given very few options in Campaigns and Events to act WITHOUT associating with the Good-minded PCs, because again, 99% of the Campaigns/Events are tailored/suited/perfect fit for the Light fighting against the Darkness, to be more poetic about it. And when you are a Player with an Evil-minded PC and trying to RP the Evilness of that PC, nothing makes one feel like shit than having to "kowtow" or "play nice" for sake of just. being. able. to. be. in. the. Event. These situations have the long term effect of "convincing" Players that playing Evil—and I do emphasis the player PLAYING evil, not being evil themselves...—is just not wanted, since they have to "play nice evil" just to "be a part of things" on BGTSCC. And when I mean things, I mean not the players playing with each other things, but the larger more special things, that just have more oomph, being the Campaigns and Events.

So now, to directly answer the question posed by Wolfy.

1. Literally, there needs to be more Campaigns and Events for Evil-minded PCs, to be Evil, and get rewarded for being Evil. If DMs don't like hosting these kind of Events, or whatever it is that makes them near non-existent on BGTSCC, then nothing will get better for the Players of said Evil-minded PCs. It will always remain a lopsided attention from the DMs to the playerbase, with just simple more focus and more possibilities for the Good-minded toon players.

2. The Evil-minded PCs NEED NEED NEED and Dukes-of-Baldurs-Gate NPC "court" or leadership, in which to get tasks, energy, direction, reward and etc. etc. Or hell, a divine direction counsel that "holds court" and gives PCs meaning and reason to enact action. Time and time again, so many players "work" by reacting to essentially DM direction of NPCs, and on BGTSCC, the Dukes are the toppity top, when it comes to "reasons for players to put effort into RP." Or, if something like a Dark Ducal Court isn't interesting or makes sense, whenever there IS a BG Ducal Court X-led campaign or event, there MUST be an Evil Alternative Thread that is simple and straightforward for players of Evil-minded toons to latch onto. I actually want to believe this is already the case, but...it usually fails. Like, Dialectic's Lawless and Brigands attempt.

3. Forum-based support for creating, "growing," maintaining and applying players' energy to Evil-minded RP, with reward. Does anyone remember The Survival Game? This started out as a 3-part player-fueled initiative—3 concurrent storylines from PC perspectives and actions, both IC and Forum based, mainly Forum based—which was ALL ABOUT STORY BUILDING, TOGETHER!!! In my humble opinion, nothing has come close to this Project, since. And...hello players, hello DMs! sooooo much role-play was created, AND so much end result ACTUALLY GOT IN-GAME because of it.

Taking a "Story Building First" attitude, is first and foremost what will make Evil-minded role-play better. And, like I said at top, this is also what Good-aligned players want as well! Evil or good PCs, many many many Players want their PCs to have purpose, and these players simply need to be asked/coerced/etc to get involved in epic story building.

Nothing generates interest like Staff support, let me tell you. And again, like I said at top, players can do a lot, but only so much. And we players do not need yuuuge gifts, tons of XP, vorpal swords as rewards, what we need is to feel like there really is a story building contract between those acting in the Environment and with those in control of said Environment.

Start small, see it work, up the ante, eventually get to Epic Level Role-play.

To end, and to just note, many players of evil-minded PCs in the past do feel burned or burned out. That's why I believe it will take many small positive Evil-rp support actions, to create a reliable foundation, for the rest to generate, and generate itself, as I believe if a good foundation is laid, players can really "take off" and will make it even better for themselves.

Cheers.

[eternal night]

My ideal scenario for an evil character I play is chances to hurt and damage good aligned NPCs, to be able to battle elves or celestial NPCs etc.

That would be fun.

[Tekill]

My ideal scenario was to meet up once or twice a month with a couple other rapscalions and work on ways to cause conflict. Sounds easy?

[Azroth]

My ideal scenario for an evil character I play is chances to hurt and damage good aligned NPCs, to be able to battle elves or celestial NPCs etc.

That would be fun.

I was trying to murder 13 civilians in the Bauldur's gate city on Sahjad (LE Bahlynn) before I retired him. You can very easy try and place in a personal request to murder NPC's so long as you have a better reason than; it's what my character would do.

DM's where over booked too, so it got placed on the way side

[FallingStar]

Team Evil is pretty sad.

The larger issue is entrenchment.

It is isolating, but I'm learning to just push back against, and failing that, ignore the characters who attempt to box me out of plots on the character I arguably enjoy more than my more goodly aligned one. I'll participate in whatever comes up that catches my interest and the people who don't want me there aren't my concern.

[Wolfshear]

Firstly I want to thank everyone for all their responses on both sides of the fence.

I figure I should post my own thoughts/experience on this.

I started playing here somewhere back in 2009 and tried out out a variety of characters before ultimately settling and there are absolutely some trends in how this side of the fence is perceived that never quite seem to go away.

The most glaring examples that spring to mind are...

1) Evil or any kind of morally questionable that does not fit into whatever box or the current clique is in fashion is seen as largely a prop for others.
Whether this is because of main character syndrome or willful (Though perhaps sometimes not willful) ignorance is up for debate and honestly varies person to person. But largely there is a prevailing attitude by many that anything outside of the current top dogs is fuel for their stories and their day to day.

There is a disturbing amount of people who think anything outside of this is simply there to lose, to be defeated and to fail ultimately. This is not exactly a new school of thought and has persisted since the day I started. Ultimately however it tends to leave a bad taste in ones mouth...To me this is central to the problem,
Time and time again this has been argued against but this mentality continues to exist somehow.

Evil or questionable peeps should not exist simply as fuel for others, their victories should not be considered temporary and they should not be considered fodder destined to use. Treating players like props does nothing but create a complete and utter lack of desire to even bother.
The amount of players we have lost over the years to these kinds of ideas is staggering, because people grow disheartened and ultimately quit.
If you create only one avenue for rp, one avenue for getting involved in the server at all, you create nothing but stagnation.

2) The second prevailing attitude is equally if not even more problematic than the first.
There is an unquestioning level of ooc disdain as several others have pointed out. I cannot even count the number of times I have been treated poorly on an ooc level simply because of who I play. For several years infact I was unable to even play any kind of alt as any alternate character was largely ostracised.

There are some that want to act like this does not exist while having never experienced it. It most assuredly does exist, always has. I would say its not nearly as bad as it was but it absolutely is still quite prevalent as you can see from some of the responses. This is another type of thing that has been argued about for nigh on a decade as with my first point. If someone cannot play an alt because everyone and their grandmother doesnt trust them or hates their main it creates a massive problem. Now of course there are always infiltrators and things like that but I am talking about the actual disdain and ignoring that goes on rather than deeper guild level stuff. People walking away or ignoring anyone of evil persuasion or the alt of anyone like that.

This absolutely does not endear people to the server, it once again pigeon holes people into either playing their main and being equally ostracised or never playing evil as its not seen as a viable option icly or oocly. This ooc forces people to only specific avenues in addition to the ic level of things going on...Again creating stagnation and making good players and rpers we might have otherwise kept grow disheartened and simply leave.

There are some here who I respect the spirit of what they are trying to say but Honestly it is as equally problematic. Telling us that we simply need to make friends or that evil needs to collaborate and work together is...Let us be real here, somewhat out of touch and short sighted. So very many times evil folk have indeed banded together in many different ways. And ironically it does not typically end because we all turn on one another as you might think.
It is that it typically and historically never gets us anywhere.

We are not nearly as divided as those on the other side of the fence seem to think, it is simply that our collaborations are often stonewalled in a variety of different ways.

The main question of what would be my ideal Scenario? Honestly for those of us on this side of things to have an actual fair shake at things, to be regarded as actual people and players that are part of the world and collaborative experience rather than props to be used when needed, discarded when not. I don't care ab out being a main character or doing anything particularly insane. I simply want to be an actual real part of the world with an equal chance to effect it and the ability to respond to those trying to effect me.

Sorry for the wall of text.....Kind of!

TLDR: Treat evil peeps like actual players instead of props destined to fail, don't tell em to "GIT GUD" and give em a fair shake