Suggestion: Pavise Crossbowman PrC

[AsuraKing]

EDIT: See the this post for the updated version: https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?p=932012#p932012

Since I randomly came up with this idea in the discord chat, figured I'd post it here too for an actual serious discussion.

Crossbow thingy PrC

Requirements: Towershield proficiency, Weapon focus - Any crossbow, Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot ,BAB +6

1- Pavise Shield (user can equip a towershield at the same time as a crossbow)
2- Weapon Specialization - choice of crossbow
3- Crossbow Sniper
4- Pavise Stance (Dwarven defender stance) x1
5- Manyshot
6- Pavise Stance (Dwarven defender stance) x2
7- Rapid Shot
8- Pavise Stance (Dwarven defender stance) x3
9- Improved Rapid Shot
10- Pavise Stance (Dwarven defender stance) x4

This would be a high BAB class.

Already stated in discord was that 1) the shield and xbow at the same time might be mechanically difficult to do, and 2) may be best to remove that and focus more on the stationary dwarven defender type stance, though I do think the shield requirement should remain since even if it's not equipped the class theme focuses around one.

[MrSmith]

Since I randomly came up with this idea in the discord chat, figured I'd post it here too for an actual serious discussion.

Crossbow thingy PrC

Requirements: Towershield proficiency, Weapon focus - Any crossbow, Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot ,BAB +6

1- Pavaise Shield (user can equip a towershield at the same time as a crossbow)
2- Weapon Specialization - choice of crossbow
3- Crossbow Sniper
4- Pavaise Stance (Dwarven defender stance) x1
5- Manyshot
6- Pavaise Stance (Dwarven defender stance) x2
7- Rapid Shot
8- Pavaise Stance (Dwarven defender stance) x3
9- Improved Rapid Shot
10- Pavaise Stance (Dwarven defender stance) x4

This would be a high BAB class.

Already stated in discord was that 1) the shield and xbow at the same time might be mechanically difficult to do, and 2) may be best to remove that and focus more on the stationary dwarven defender type stance, though I do think the shield requirement should remain since even if it's not equipped the class theme focuses around one.

Huge fan of the idea! I assume DD Stance is merely a stand-in example of Pavaise Stance and not a suggestion to copy and paste the actual DD Stance for the purposes of this PrC because it does not work with ranged weapons.

I would swap Rapid Shot with Manyshot.

This PrC makes sense to me because the amount of time it takes to reload makes it tactically infeasible to use a crossbow without the benefit of some form of cover or concealment.

I would also swap Tower Shield for Large Shield or Tower Shield so this PrC can be used by Halflings, Gnomes, etc.

Cheers!

[Anchor]

How about making crossbow sniper a pre req (to show dedication to the crossbow) with crossbow sniper master as a bonus feat on 10.

[AsuraKing]

Following some suggestions and being informed that it very likely could be possible to get vfx added to the pavise stance of deploying the shield I made an updated layout:

Pavise Crossbowman

Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Shield Proficiency, Weapon focus - Any crossbow, Crossbow Sniper


Class feature progression
Hit die: 10
Skill points: 2 + Int modifier
Class skills: Craft trap, Craft armor, Craft weapon, Set Trap, Listen, Spot, Search, Lore: Arch-engineering, Lore: Local, Lore: History, Lore: Nobility
Base attack bonus progression: High
Saving throws high: Fortitude, Reflex
low: Will

1- Pavise Stance x1
2- Weapon Specialization - choice of crossbow
3- Pavise Stance x2
4- Rapid Reload
5- Pavise Stance x3
6- Rapid shot
Pavise AC+1
7- Pavise Stance x4
8- Manyshot
9- Pavise Stance x5
Improved Rapid Shot
10- Crossbow Sniper, Master
Pavise AC+1

Pavise Stance: The Pavise Crossbowman sets down their shield as portable cover in front of them. While deployed they cannot move from the spot they are holding, but gain a +4 bonus to dexterity, +2 constitution, and +2 bonus to saves. While deployed the pavise grants +4 shield bonus to AC, increasing by +1 at levels 6 and 10. A pavise crossbowman can use this ability 1/day at level 1 and gain an additional use every 2 levels beyond 1st level. Moving or equipping a weapon other than a crossbow cancels this stance.

Disclaimer: I am absolutely NOT an expert or even close to knowledgeable about power/balance in classes, so feel free to give all the constructive critisism/change ideas you'd like! Also I have absolutely no idea how hard these abilities and stuff would be to code....


-----------------------------------------

Some brief foods for thought:
- Split the Pavise Stance into two abilities 1) Deploy shield - grants the shield bonus while stationary and becomes a cooldown ability. 2) "hunker down" (Name is a WIP...) grants the stat bonuses as well as a haste effect (for an extra attack) used while shield is deployed, advances from 1-5 uses/day from class advancement.
- AC from the shield would base AC, not enhancement, showing the crossbowman's trained use as he advances in levels

[Habitu]

Pavise Stance: The Pavise Crossbowman sets down their shield as portable cover in front of them. While deployed they cannot move from the spot they are holding, but gain a +4 bonus to dexterity, +2 constitution, and +2 bonus to saves. While deployed the pavise grants +4 shield bonus to AC, increasing by +1 at levels 6 and 10. A pavise crossbowman can use this ability 1/day at level 1 and gain an additional use every 2 levels beyond 1st level. Moving or equipping a weapon other than a crossbow cancels this stance.

My question for this is why would a stance that you will be standing still for give you increased DEX? Perhaps a couple points of AB for 'steady aiming' ? That would make more sense to me versus DEX. Con bit I suppose it just something akin to how DD is. I'm no build guru mind just what jumped out at me.

[AsuraKing]

My question for this is why would a stance that you will be standing still for give you increased DEX? Perhaps a couple points of AB for 'steady aiming' ? That would make more sense to me versus DEX. Con bit I suppose it just something akin to how DD is. I'm no build guru mind just what jumped out at me.

Valid point to think about, the intent was for a calmer steady aim, which I do suppose a bonus to AB would also work for.

[MrSmith]

Pavise Stance: The Pavise Crossbowman sets down their shield as portable cover in front of them. While deployed they cannot move from the spot they are holding, but gain a +4 bonus to dexterity, +2 constitution, and +2 bonus to saves. While deployed the pavise grants +4 shield bonus to AC, increasing by +1 at levels 6 and 10. A pavise crossbowman can use this ability 1/day at level 1 and gain an additional use every 2 levels beyond 1st level. Moving or equipping a weapon other than a crossbow cancels this stance.

My question for this is why would a stance that you will be standing still for that gives you an increase to DEX? Perhaps a couple of points of AB for 'steady aiming'? That would make more sense to me versus DEX. Con bit I suppose it is just something akin to how DD is. I'm no build guru mind just what jumped out at me.

I opine a +2 increase in AB for controlled breathing and steady aim are appropriate and make the +4 Dex unnecessary. As the crossbowman is now a smaller target (kneeling behind a shield), I could see a case made for increased saves... because he or she is a smaller target with their vital organs less exposed and protected, I opine this could easily manifest as an increase in fortitude and will saves. Reflexes? Not so convincing.

[Deathgrowl]

I opine a +2 increase in AB for controlled breathing and steady aim are appropriate and make the +4 Dex unnecessary. As the crossbowman is now a smaller target (kneeling behind a shield), I could see a case made for increased saves... because he or she is a smaller target with their vital organs less exposed and protected, I opine this could easily manifest as an increase in fortitude and will saves. Reflexes? Not so convincing.

Cover and Concealment.

This PRC gives all the important feats for crossbowing. I'm not sure it's wise to make the PRC practically a must-have for crossbowers. A bunch of feats, two high saves and an ability to get quite a lot of defensiveness seems a bit excessive to me.

Also does rapid shot even matter for crossbow? I thought it was just rapid reload. I know you need rapid shot for manyshot, but does improved rapid shot even have a function here?

[Theodore01]

Rapid shot+rapid reload allows 3 attacks with a crossbow. Improved rs reduces the ab malus.

The PRC would also need a steep requirement (similar the breach gnome has) 2-3 'useless' feats.

I'm not sure a crossbower needs more power, as they are already way too strong once they got the sniper feat or one of the overpowered xbows.

Want some AC - use a sling and do way less damage.

[MrSmith]

Rapid shot+rapid reload allows 3 attacks with a crossbow. Improved rs reduces the ab malus.

The PRC would also need a steep requirement (similar the breach gnome has) 2-3 'useless' feats.

I'm not sure a crossbower needs more power, as they are already way too strong once they got the sniper feat or one of the overpowered xbows.

Want some AC - use a sling and do way less damage.

I personally prefer Slings to all other range attack options. Unfortunately, the ammunition cost + inability to bypass DR against higher-level threats makes any ranged weapon an acquired taste.

I view AsuraKing's Crossbow PrC suggestion as something that will increase the number of players who decide to use an X-bow. If the server's purpose is to increase roleplay and encourage party-centric adventures... then anything that provides RP value and survivability to niche areas of the player community is well worth the value and investment.

Cheers!

[eternal night]

I think a shield wielding ranged character beats the purpose of being ranged.

Cut down the amount of free feats and maybe it's a decent PRC, it looks like a pathfinder prc without "dead levels". A balance and design philosipy that differs from what nwn2 is based on.

[AsuraKing]

I'm cool with dropping down the number of feats the class provides, honestly I'd personally like to see less standard feats and more unique class effects. But seeing as I know nothing about what is viable to be coded into the game I just went the safe way with mostly just granted feats.

I think a shield wielding ranged character beats the purpose of being ranged.

I actually disagree, I'm basing the class theme here off of historical use for the weapon. Most cultures that used crossbows in their armies had portable cover specifically so they could reload safely and European armies had the pavise to fill that role. Game mechanics wise you have longbow/shortbow which are generally the go-to since they have a LOT more attacks/round (and ranger advances them) which allows them to be extremely mobile and we have the warslinger which is more of an AoE ranged class (and race locked) from what I've seen (Havent played it myself). The idea here was an entirely different niche for a ranged role as a "turret" based class utilizing a weapon that rarely ever gets used, setting the shield would NOT be instant (at least 1 round to set up/take down IMO) so it would be ideal for defensive play and terrible for mobility.

No idea if it's even possible, but I think it would be fantastic if the deployed shield made you vulnerable to flanking attacks while making you tanky against attacks (mundane not magical) directed at where your shield is facing. I just love the idea of crossbowmen making defensive formations and actually using them in events and stuff rather than the blobs that fights turn into.

[MrSmith]

I'm cool with dropping down the number of feats the class provides, honestly I'd personally like to see less standard feats and more unique class effects. But seeing as I know nothing about what is viable to be coded into the game I just went the safe way with mostly just granted feats.

I think a shield wielding ranged character beats the purpose of being ranged.

I actually disagree, I'm basing the class theme here off of historical use for the weapon. Most cultures that used crossbows in their armies had portable cover specifically so they could reload safely and European armies had the pavise to fill that role. Game mechanics wise you have longbow/shortbow which are generally the go-to since they have a LOT more attacks/round (and ranger advances them) which allows them to be extremely mobile and we have the warslinger which is more of an AoE ranged class (and race locked) from what I've seen (Havent played it myself). The idea here was an entirely different niche for a ranged role as a "turret" based class utilizing a weapon that rarely ever gets used, setting the shield would NOT be instant (at least 1 round to set up/take down IMO) so it would be ideal for defensive play and terrible for mobility.

No idea if it's even possible, but I think it would be fantastic if the deployed shield made you vulnerable to flanking attacks while making you tanky against attacks (mundane not magical) directed at where your shield is facing. I just love the idea of crossbowmen making defensive formations and actually using them in events and stuff rather than the blobs that fights turn into.

The crossbow served a role distinct from archers and was specifically well known for devastating mounted knights (armored). I've included two sources in support of AsuraKing's assertion this PrC is consistent with the historical use of the crossbow. The first source listed makes one point I found very insightful... Crossbowmen were typically conscripted because their weapon did not require a lifetime of training like that of an archer or horseman. Nevertheless, "the eventual death of the heavily armored aristocratic knight [is the result of] armies bec[oming] progressively dominated by conscripts equipped with [crossbows]".

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Crossbow

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Pavise

[Tsidkenu]

I made a similar suggestion to this regarding shortbows some years ago, based on Scythian and Greek shortbow tactics (sadly the original source link no longer works)

viewtopic.php?f=446&t=65415&p=817798

[MrSmith]

I made a similar suggestion to this regarding shortbows some years ago, based on Scythian and Greek shortbow tactics (sadly the original source link no longer works)

viewtopic.php?f=446&t=65415&p=817798

Great thread! As you said, feats based on history.