Suggestion: Spellcraft for Paladins and Rangers

[RedLancer]

In the Pathfinder ruleset, Paladins and Rangers get Spellcraft as a class skill. This makes sense because they prepare and cast spells.

On BGtSCC, Anointed Knight / Warrior of Darkness get Spellcraft as a class skill. They do not prepare and cast spells, though a single rank in Spellcraft is a requisite for taking the class. Champion of Corellon gets Spellcraft as a class skill, and it neither has it as a prereq. nor interacts with spell casting.

In the interests of logic, consistency, and balance (prestige class power v. base class power), it seems that Paladins and Rangers should have Spellcraft as a class skill.

[Steve]

It does make sense. Though, to be fair, it would be a definite buff to the Classes.

Not like a Paladin has many Skills to share, Ranger either, so...it would be a challenge to PB with needing INT high enough to actually invest in the Skill.

[eternal night]

This is not pathfinder and also paladins already have superior saving throws, they don't need more.

[RedLancer]

This is not pathfinder

It's not a bad idea to consult professional resources that have built on the 3.0/3.5 rules, and as much Kaedrin's stuff as there is here, this is a hollow argument.

also paladins already have superior saving throws, they don't need more.

Classes don't "need" anything, but in the context of creating some sense of parity among classes and builds, it'd be a good move.

[Blaze]

From an RP point of view, not all rangers and paladins are capable of recognizing magic, this does not mean not being able to use the powers bestowed by their deities.
WoD and AK precisely have a base of what is the arcane, unlike other PrCs that require a higher score of spellcraft and lore:arcane, plus they have to perform rituals to empower their body and their weapons, therefore from a roleplaying point of view it is right that they have the ability to deepen these studies.

When it comes to mechanical balance, no thanks, rangers and paladins are among the best classes (not pure paladins but a simple paladin dip, 4 or 5 level) and do not need an additional boost.

Parity between classes makes no sense when it comes to D&D, each class has different characteristics precisely to differentiate the various possible archetypes. If my RP is based on being a paladin and yours in a ranger, why should we have any characteristics that affect the RP of a wizard? Or a cleric?
You can always unlock this possibility with the use of a feat, this implies that in our RP there has been a study behind, time spent having knowledge in arcane magics or in spells in general

[RedLancer]

From an RP point of view, not all rangers and paladins are capable of recognizing magic, this does not mean not being able to use the powers bestowed by their deities.

From an RP point of view, not all Rogues are skilled escape artists, yet they have access to Escape Artist as a class skill. Further, every other spellcasting base class has access to Spellcraft. It stands to reason that classes that cast spells indeed recognize magic.

WoD and AK precisely have a base of what is the arcane, unlike other PrCs that require a higher score of spellcraft and lore:arcane, plus they have to perform rituals to empower their body and their weapons, therefore from a roleplaying point of view it is right that they have the ability to deepen these studies.

Spellcraft isn't limited to the arcane. Further, I can't see how you're drawing the line between preparing an oil (alchemy) and studying spells and their casting as one being the purview of Spellcraft and the other not. (I notice we're glossing over Champion of Corellon.)

When it comes to mechanical balance, no thanks, rangers and paladins are among the best classes (not pure paladins but a simple paladin dip, 4 or 5 level) and do not need an additional boost.

If your perception of a base class's balance is its use as a 4- or 5-level part of a build—like a prestige class—then we're not talking about the same thing.

You can always unlock this possibility with the use of a feat, this implies that in our RP there has been a study behind, time spent having knowledge in arcane magics or in spells in general

The acquisition of the ability to prepare and cast spells at level 4 implies the RP of study and time spent gaining knowledge re: the makeup of spells. How else do you explain the availability of Spellcraft to Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, Spirit Shamans, Favored Souls, Bards, and Warlocks?

[Blaze]

Anointed knights were usually fighters or paladins who combined their power with an arcane spellcasting class, usually sorcerer or wizard. More rarely they were single-class wizards, sorcerers, clerics, or bards
Wielding an ancestral weapon, they searched for obscure lore, consulted historians and alchemists, and communed with the powers of good. Their combat prowess was matched only by their thirst for knowledge.


And not all rogues can open locks but they can with proper training.
Not all rangers can use traps but hey, they can if they put skillpoints .

My perception of evels includes everything, those who choose to continue with more levels or those who decide not to do it, strange but true, this also applies to the 4 rogue dip for evasion / uncanny dodge / sneak attack and a 4 fighter level dip for extra feats etc.

[Rhifox]

Paladin and Ranger do not receive Spellcraft as a class skill because they are half-casters. They do not engage in serious study of magic, it is not their primary purpose or calling, it is something they do on the side that supplements their main abilities. Therefore, they take Spellcraft as a non-class skill. There is nothing stopping these classes from investing points into Spellcraft, it is just not as intuitive to them as true casters because they are not practicing it as their primary craft. Their day-to-day activities are not the study or practice of Spellcraft. Just like they only get half the spell progression of true casters, they only get half the progression of Spellcraft (30 points for 15 ranks).

Anointed Knights get Spellcraft because the entire lore of the class is that they are searching out obscure alchemical and arcane knowledge. They do not cast spells in the traditional manner, but searching out knowledge is their purpose. Warriors of Darkness are, likewise, treated as practitioners of magic, who must research and perform many rituals to enter the class. In the case of both anointed knights and warriors of darkness, they perform more ritualized magic that enhances their human form, but it is still magic. In both cases, therefore, these classes are considered true casters, because their class features and purpose are derived from the pursuit and practice of magic. They are more like a flavor of eldritch knight.

I can't explain why Champion of Corellon gets it, beyond that elves traditionally are much more in tune with magic than other races.

And the point about balance is an important one. Giving these classes, both of which are already very strong and popular, Spellcraft would be functionally increasing their saves by +6. I might be open to giving them Spellcraft if we removed the bonus to saves that Spellcraft gives (which is an entirely NWN convention that did not exist in pnp), but not while it's a mechanically strong skill.

[RedLancer]

Just like they only get half the spell progression of true casters, they only get half the progression of Spellcraft (30 points for 15 ranks).

But they're not half-casters. They're full casters – 3, just like they are in Pathfinder.

Giving these classes, both of which are already very strong and popular

Neither is "very strong"; those are Bard, Warlock, Barbarian, Favored Soul/Cleric, Wizard, Druid. I don't have data to argue their popularity other than I expect that there aren't that many full-ish Paladins walking around, but there are plenty of Favored Souls (all High saves) and Warlocks (can get double CHA to saves), and while neither's day-to-day activities involve the study or practice of Spellcraft, both receive it as a class skill.

In the case of both anointed knights and warriors of darkness, they perform more ritualized magic that enhances their human form, but it is still magic. In both cases, therefore, these classes are considered true casters, because their class features and purpose are derived from the pursuit and practice of magic.

How are you distinguishing this from other classes' growth in magical potency? The two PrCs here mix magic oil (or in the case of CoC, are apparently "more" elven than other elves); casting classes gain access to stronger and stronger magic over time. Paladins and Rangers must prepare their spells ahead of time, like Wizards, Clerics, and Druids; what's different for group A from group B?

[eternal night]

Paladins and rangers being full casters is just a thing of NWN2 , it's not how theh are in pnp, in pnp their caster level is way lower I think half of what others are. My argument isn't hollow because again this is not pathfinder and the server philosopy has never been "take stuff from pathfinder" but we rather take stuff from 3.5

I know you are a paladin player Red Lancer and many times have given suggestions to buff paladins who are already very mechanically strong.

I think that the class is already extremely strong same for ranger and they don't need spellcraft. Maybe in special cases like mystran paladins, but not all.

[Steve]

A Paladin 26 / Anointed Knight 4 is pretty damn good, getting CL 30 with Practised Caster and as well Spellcraft 30!!

PS—Paladin 7 / Divinate 19 / AK 4 is even better!!

[RedLancer]

I know you are a paladin player Red Lancer and many times have given suggestions to buff paladins who are already very mechanically strong.

Paladins are middle-of-the-pack, nowhere near the "strong" classes on this server. Appreciate the tacit accusation.

A Paladin 26 / Anointed Knight 4 is pretty damn good, getting CL 30 with Practised Caster and as well Spellcraft 30!!

Yes, any class with Anointed Knight can get Spellcraft 30. And Tumble. And Tower Shield Proficiency.

[Blaze]

Have you ever seen a smiting paladin build? I'm not mentioning the EDM/Divine shield one, but a niche build capable of oneshotting some bosses and players in PvP.

They are not in the middle, a Favoured soul/paladin build is still a paladin, no matter the levels spent, you have to RP the paladin class.

I can mention various paladin builds if you want, also pure paladins with 4 fighter dip, or a Paladin/MaA, or paladin/sorcerer/dragon disciple, there're several builds and the paladin class is on top with its unique abilities and (cha/str stacking) spells

[Rhifox]

Just like they only get half the spell progression of true casters, they only get half the progression of Spellcraft (30 points for 15 ranks).

But they're not half-casters. They're full casters – 3, just like they are in Pathfinder.

They only get up to 4th level spells. That's a half-caster. And them getting full CL is a BG-custom change.

In the case of both anointed knights and warriors of darkness, they perform more ritualized magic that enhances their human form, but it is still magic. In both cases, therefore, these classes are considered true casters, because their class features and purpose are derived from the pursuit and practice of magic.

How are you distinguishing this from other classes' growth in magical potency? The two PrCs here mix magic oil (or in the case of CoC, are apparently "more" elven than other elves); casting classes gain access to stronger and stronger magic over time. Paladins and Rangers must prepare their spells ahead of time, like Wizards, Clerics, and Druids; what's different for group A from group B?

The flavor of the class. Paladins and rangers are not magic-users first. Again, they are half-casters. Spellcasting supplements their primary duties, but it is something they do on the side. The only paladins in pnp that get Spellcraft are mystic fire knights and magic domain paladins, who focus their duties more specifically on magic.

Anointed Knights and Warriors of Darkness are entirely flavored around magic. Magic is how a character enters the class, magic is how they use their abilities, the study and practice of magic is central in their lore and purpose. They do not cast magic in the form of spells, but they are mage classes nonetheless.

[RedLancer]

I can mention various paladin builds if you want, also pure paladins with 4 fighter dip, or a Paladin/MaA, or paladin/sorcerer/dragon disciple, there're several builds and the paladin class is on top with its unique abilities and (cha/str stacking) spells

None of which are top builds. They are improvements upon the base paladin, but they're nowhere the top of the heap.

They are not in the middle, a Favoured soul/paladin build is still a paladin, no matter the levels spent, you have to RP the paladin class.

A Favored Soul / Paladin is a Favored Soul build, same for Sorcerer / Paladin / Dragon Disciple: it's a sorcerer build. Not sure where role playing the aspects of your dip class factors into a discussion of mechanical balance. Pointing at other classes that can dip Paladin to exploit the Charisma bonus to Saves is not making the argument you think it is.

Have you ever seen a smiting paladin build? I'm not mentioning the EDM/Divine shield one, but a niche build capable of oneshotting some bosses and players in PvP.

A gimmick for killing evil, melee-based PCs in PvP isn't a useful attribute for measuring class balance.

They only get up to 4th level spells. That's a half-caster. And them getting full CL is a BG-custom change.

Are Bards 2/3 casters? Are Warlocks half-casters? And while it's a change BG has implemented, it's a change in place in another standard ruleset that audited 3.5 class balance and made changes to underperforming classes.

Spellcasting supplements their primary duties, but it is something they do on the side.

Casting spells on themselves prior to swording bad guys is no less important to Paladins than it is to Clerics and Favored Souls. On BG, in fact, the spell book is the most important component of the class.