Spawn Rates

[thepaganking]

I wanted to start a rational discussion concerning the change in spawn rates that was enacted today with the latest update.

To start, I wanted to state that I love this server. The reason I love this server is because it has been pretty well balanced to serve many types of players.
1. RP Heavy - those people that love to RP, have titles, sit around the campfire, tell tales, instigate intrigue and drama, and participate in small or large DM events.
2. PVP Heavy - those who love to PVP, try out new builds for PVP, participate in PVP events, and try to rule the PVP crowd.
3. The Mix - those people that RP, but lightly, politely, and sometimes enroll in events. Those people that love building characters to see what is the art of possible on the server. Those that want to scour the server for epic items, treasure, and the like. Those that want to level a character to a certain level rather quickly to ascertain if they like the build, and those that want to test the hardest places on the server with creative builds.

There has always been a place for all these people.

However, it appears that the recent changes put certain classes I described at a distinct disadvantage because the spawn rates are much lower and the risk to reward ratio is also decreased. That means you are forcing people to either run from area to area - most likely losing all their buffs (which can be expensive) as they transition from one server to another; or forcing them around the campfire and doing something they possibly do not necessarily enjoy or have the time to explore. Many people on this server have limited time and wish only to hit an area to get a few XP points and a bag of gold and do not have time to sit around a campfire and chat or wait for someone to show up and chat to get a bit of XP.

And please let us not kid ourselves; this is not an exclusive RP server. I came from an exclusive RP server with draconian rules against muling and all that comes with it. This server was built to accommodate many play styles and I believe it should stay that way.

TPK

[gedweyignasia]

My understanding of the design philosophy on this server is that we attempt to provide content for all levels to explore and engage with, but that the purpose of this content is to provide adventures, rather than a training gym. There were a small number of areas which we determined had received an outsized proportion of players' attention with regards to combat, and those areas have had their spawn rates reduced. We're going to try these new spawn rates for the next month or so and see if the adjustment was appropriate.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I saw the topic of spawn rates, and came here thinking that this was going to be the exact opposite post. I have found that spawn rates in some places are antithetical to RP, because they are too quick. If I clear out a room in a dungeon, and then suddenly a mob spawns on top of me, that's just immersion breaking. It also forces people to run some of the dungeons, rather than to be able to take their time and RP through them. Especially now that we have to explore the entire dungeon to search for chests every time we enter.

I am 100% in favor of lowering spawn rates across the server.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Also wanted to contrast a couple quotes.

Many people on this server have limited time and wish only to hit an area to get a few XP points and a bag of gold and do not have time to sit around a campfire and chat or wait for someone to show up and chat to get a bit of XP.

TPK

if you want cool items, go out and get them, IMO, and don't complain that you cannot get epic items because you refuse to put in the time or energy to gain them.

Seems you have two differing views. It's bad if you have to take time to do things, because many people have a limited time. But then others shouldn't complain because they don't have the time?

[yyj]

My theory:

Admins want to cull population of the server. With changes like these, you cannot expect anyone to be happy.

Spawn rates are not anti rp, I know way worse things that hurt rp and this is not one.

JAG and ged I disagree with your points and I can easily refute them just go rp somewhere indoor, there are no spawn rates there, we already have many rp only maps without monsters.

Just watch as less people play in the server and less people equals to less rp and less interest.

My theory is that, the population of the server is getting reduced to increase the quality of rp. (This is a mistake)

[gedweyignasia]

Admins want to cull population of the server.

If this is the case, it's a secret from me. Please remember that our admins are people with feelings, and while you might have strong feelings about the changes the development team is making, it's hurtful when you lash out at others. We might not agree, but we're all trying our best.

My theory is that, the population of the server is getting reduced to increase the quality of rp. (This is a mistake)

The leadership in both the development and DM side of things are trying to push the server in more of an RP direction in general. Reducing the playerbase is not a part of that plan. I understand that having these areas available as easy "grinding spots" was an attractive option to players, but for the next month or so we're going to try having them spawn somewhat fewer monsters. I promise to keep an eye on the situation and review this decision in about a month.

[yyj]

It is not my intention to hurt any feelings, but a big portion of the player base simply feels betrayed, this is what happens when a big change of mechanics is done like this unannounced, remember how much trouble was changing how the loot worked? I have backtracked myself personally when mistaken, and I hope that other people can too, realize when they made a mistake.

I know some people have already left and stopped playing, this change doesn't affect me personally, I haven't touched any areas for the purpose of leveling up in a long long time, but this is just my personal preference, now I feel bad for all the people who used to live at wyverns because it's like throwing cold water on top of them as a surprise joke.

I have little more to add, the numbers will speak by themselves, if that is not enough weight to change this thing soon, then maybe when the change is rolled back, the damage will be already done.

[gedweyignasia]

It is not my intention to hurt any feelings, but a big portion of the player base simply feels betrayed, this is what happens when a big change of mechanics is done like this unannounced, remember how much trouble was changing how the loot worked? I have backtracked myself personally when mistaken, and I hope that other people can too, realize when they made a mistake.

I've made it very clear; we're going to see how it works for the next month or so. We can see how much traffic those areas get compared to normal, and if they become outliers in the other direction, we will certainly look to redress any damage this might have caused. Please have a little faith in us, and bear with us while we try new things.

I understand that it was not your intention to hurt anyone's feelings, and I appreciate your making a better effort in the future to be considerate when choosing your words.

I know some people have already left and stopped playing, this change doesn't affect me personally, I haven't touched any areas for the purpose of leveling up in a long long time, but this is just my personal preference, now I feel bad for all the people who used to live at wyverns because it's like throwing cold water on top of them as a surprise joke.

The fact that people used to "live at wyverns" is what we're looking to address. We fully expect that players will find another similar spot that they greatly prefer to all others, but with enough tweaking we should have a well-rounded server with good balance across all areas. I don't have data going back very far, but player counts are stable for the time being. NWN2 in general is losing players more quickly than it gains them, so it may be wise to expect our community to shrink slowly regardless of how content the BGTSCC community is.

I have little more to add, the numbers will speak by themselves, if that is not enough weight to change this thing soon, then maybe when the change is rolled back, the damage will be already done.

That's the idea; to let the numbers speak for themselves. We appreciate your patience, and hopefully everyone will continue to bear with us while we refine game mechanics.

[zhazz]

The leadership in both the development and DM side of things are trying to push the server in more of an RP direction in general. Reducing the playerbase is not a part of that plan. I understand that having these areas available as easy "grinding spots" was an attractive option to players, but for the next month or so we're going to try having them spawn somewhat fewer monsters. I promise to keep an eye on the situation and review this decision in about a month.

If some areas felt over-populated compared to others, then it might have been a good idea to also bump up under-populated areas at the same time.

Balancing any game is always going to be incredibly difficult. Some decide to just buff what is under-performing, without touching the top-end stuff, thus paving the road for power creep. Others nerf the over-performing instead, without touching the bottom-end stuff, thus paving the road for impotency. Neither philosophy is inherently bad, as long as both are applied to cancel each other out. Getting it right, however . . I feel bad for those trying, because it's incredibly difficult.

That being said, I will stand by my initial statement that it might not have produced (as much) negative feedback if other areas had received a slight bump.

Hindsight is 2020 though, and we all know how that turned out

[gedweyignasia]

If some areas felt over-populated compared to others, then it might have been a good idea to also bump up under-populated areas at the same time.

I agree, but we're not sure if other areas are under-performing because they're not spawning enough or because a few areas are spawning much more than they should. The data are so skewed by the incredible amount of attention that wyverns (and a few other areas, to a lesser extent) are receiving, that it's hard to assess the health and viability of the other areas, because they aren't getting any players. Hopefully this nerf will mean players don't grind wyverns to the exclusion of other areas, providing us with enough data to determine which spots are underperforming and improve those.

The graph below shows which areas players have earned the most XP from. Larger bubbles represent places which are more productive in our stats. (Considering both time efficiency and total popularity.)

There's a very clear outlier for wyverns. Besides Xvarts, the other areas in that level range are barely getting any attention, so there's not much data. Hopefully, that will change over the next month.

[Winterborne]

With regard to Wyverns, I believe that their popularity is less about their spawn rate, and more about consistency and safety coupled with an unintended side effect of another change that happened on the server.

Wyverns are creatures that are popular for a very wide level range because of the way they are - there's no special attacks to worry about (like with say, the nearby Basilisk area), no worry about spellcasters (unlike the nearby xvarts), and it's an area right next to two towns, one of which you can take a wagon to.

Additionally, there is a quest that sends you to that area which likely boosts the traffic it gets.

Wyverns used to be avoided pretty soundly by people because their poison made them unpredictable if you couldn't guarantee you wouldn't be impacted by it. That CON loss was a real danger.

But now that Neutralize poison is what it is after the nerfs to death ward, you can buy green beans in Beregost right next door and be immune to wyvern poison for your entire grinding session. This means that you're fighting a creature that has no special attacks or things you need to be cautious of at all. The spawn rate there was fast but the main reason it was so popular was that, coupled with the scaling I assume, which led them to be disproportionately easy for a creature of whatever CR they are (that gives max XP all the way up to 20 and is doable fairly safely starting at level 12 depending on build, buffs, and gear availability). Wyverns are a creature that is extremely unlikely to cause you to suffer the unintended XP loss a death can cause.

The area is also designed such that it offers a near perfect "loop", where you can repeatedly run in a circle from the entry point with no backtracking. And worse still, folks can go AFK in the middle area (near the hilltop/plateau that most of the circular movement takes place around) and still get XP as all the kills will be in range of them.

For wyverns specifically I believe that they will continue to be popular no matter what is done to the spawn rate as long as you can be completely immune to the poison, and as long as there's no additional danger. To shake things up, I'd suggest. . .

- vegetable/fruit that conveys neutralize poison only works as an antidote without conferring the poison immunity that the other sources of the spell provide. Alternately, reverting to old Neutralize Poison would still allow people to carry the antidotes but the lack of straight immunity would make classes like druids, monks, and paladins that end up immune to poison feel a bit more special for it rather than it being a thing everyone can do with some green beans.

- increase the likelihood of the Efreeti that occupy the same area compared to the wyverns, perhaps with an additional type or two that can put players more on guard with a risk they do not currently see there.

[The Whistler]

Absolutely atrocious change considering current server culture and the spawn rate decrease isn't even the worst offender. Disabling scaling is going to stonewall certain builds HARD when the (most of the time only) area within their level range has monsters that hard counter them (think xvart shamans and fighter builds). Spawn rate decrease is something of a red herring honestly and when people start waking up to the real experience nerf it's not going to be pretty. I already noticed massive xp drops at the higher levels (fire giants down to 18xp a pop from 30odd).

[Hoihe]

With regard to Wyverns, I believe that their popularity is less about their spawn rate, and more about consistency and safety coupled with an unintended side effect of another change that happened on the server.

Wyverns are creatures that are popular for a very wide level range because of the way they are - there's no special attacks to worry about (like with say, the nearby Basilisk area), no worry about spellcasters (unlike the nearby xvarts), and it's an area right next to two towns, one of which you can take a wagon to.

Additionally, there is a quest that sends you to that area which likely boosts the traffic it gets.

Wyverns used to be avoided pretty soundly by people because their poison made them unpredictable if you couldn't guarantee you wouldn't be impacted by it. That CON loss was a real danger.

But now that Neutralize poison is what it is after the nerfs to death ward, you can buy green beans in Beregost right next door and be immune to wyvern poison for your entire grinding session. This means that you're fighting a creature that has no special attacks or things you need to be cautious of at all. The spawn rate there was fast but the main reason it was so popular was that, coupled with the scaling I assume, which led them to be disproportionately easy for a creature of whatever CR they are (that gives max XP all the way up to 20 and is doable fairly safely starting at level 12 depending on build, buffs, and gear availability). Wyverns are a creature that is extremely unlikely to cause you to suffer the unintended XP loss a death can cause.

The area is also designed such that it offers a near perfect "loop", where you can repeatedly run in a circle from the entry point with no backtracking. And worse still, folks can go AFK in the middle area (near the hilltop/plateau that most of the circular movement takes place around) and still get XP as all the kills will be in range of them.

For wyverns specifically I believe that they will continue to be popular no matter what is done to the spawn rate as long as you can be completely immune to the poison, and as long as there's no additional danger. To shake things up, I'd suggest. . .

- vegetable/fruit that conveys neutralize poison only works as an antidote without conferring the poison immunity that the other sources of the spell provide. Alternately, reverting to old Neutralize Poison would still allow people to carry the antidotes but the lack of straight immunity would make classes like druids, monks, and paladins that end up immune to poison feel a bit more special for it rather than it being a thing everyone can do with some green beans.

- increase the likelihood of the Efreeti that occupy the same area compared to the wyverns, perhaps with an additional type or two that can put players more on guard with a risk they do not currently see there.

We need more areas like the wyverns, not less.

More areas that are low risk, low effort that provide tangible and real rewards of progression. This encourages players to log on even if they're lethargic, tired or otherwise unable to focus on high-effort/risk activities.

[Valefort]

There is no agenda to cull the playerbase, also some areas received a bump in spawn rate.

Both top and bottom of the distribution were changed slightly, the goal being that areas that are way out of the norm are tweaked slowly so that all areas become valid choices instead of funneling people towards a couple of areas.

Spawn rate is one parameter, proportion of casters another, small bosses ...

As for scaling it was disabled because instead of promoting a diverse use in areas it ended up doing the exact contrary : people remained in the same area as long as the exp was high.

[Steve]

As for scaling it was disabled because instead of promoting a diverse use in areas it ended up doing the exact contrary : people remained in the same area as long as the exp was high.

Why does Staff see this as a problem?

If you want Players to “move around” more, what should be done imho is rebuild mobs for a few equal CR areas that match your outliers, essentially, making some stagnant areas more fun.

You have a problem with fun??

And let us not forget that Areas have a spawn timer, in that after some minutes, there are NO MOBS LEFT, and players are already/currently forced to relocate…

…or worse, take a grind break and RP.