Spawn Rates

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Many of the players were already 30 and wanting to return to 30 after a small adjustment to their build.

It feels even less imperative that content be provided for the convenience of powerbuilders.

If you actively played the game you'd notice some players are roleplaying their changes over a course of time then make their mechanical adjustments thereafter to reflect it. The discussion isn't just about powerbuilders, power levelers, nor about you, nor about I.

[FallingStar]

Many of the players were already 30 and wanting to return to 30 after a small adjustment to their build.

It feels even less imperative that content be provided for the convenience of powerbuilders.

Two things.

1.) It's not just powerbuilders who utilize the RcR functions. Some people do it to reflect character development pushing a toon in another direction. Some people made a mistake while leveling the first time and it needs to be fixed. Some people retired a character and made another. There are many reasons one might RcR a level 30 toon that aren't for the sake of powerbuilding. That doesn't mean the content should be made less fun and gratifying.

2.) The epic content is geared towards powerbuilders.

[gedweyignasia]

Many of the players were already 30 and wanting to return to 30 after a small adjustment to their build.

It feels even less imperative that content be provided for the convenience of powerbuilders.

Some people made a mistake while leveling the first time and it needs to be fixed.

This kind of small change to your level 30's build is something I'd think of as powerbuilding.

Many of the players were already 30 and wanting to return to 30 after a small adjustment to their build.

It feels even less imperative that content be provided for the convenience of powerbuilders.

Some people retired a character and made another.

This isn't a small change to your build.

The epic content is geared towards powerbuilders.

Are you trying to justify powerbuilding or are you agreeing with me that it's not really a priority to tailor content for powerbuilders' convenience?

[gedweyignasia]

Many of the players were already 30 and wanting to return to 30 after a small adjustment to their build.

It feels even less imperative that content be provided for the convenience of powerbuilders.

<Unnecessary personal attack edited out> some players are roleplaying their changes over a course of time then make their mechanical adjustments thereafter to reflect it.

Yes, and when a character changes dramatically enough to warrant a de-level or a re-build for RP purposes, they're RPing losing some skills and proficiencies in order to gain new ones. In other words, if you're playing your sheet, it makes sense for your character to temporarily decrease in power.

[Bobthehero]

Removing scaling mobs hurts non powerbuilds more than they do powerbuilds, anyway, given that the latter will be able to move on to another area sooner, get more XP, level up faster, while non powerbuilds are stuck in the lower CR zones, except now there's no scaling to make their XP gain keep up for the gap before they can move on to the next area.

[gedweyignasia]

Removing scaling mobs hurts non powerbuilds more than they do powerbuilds, anyway, given that the latter will be able to move on to another area sooner, get more XP, level up faster, while non powerbuilds are stuck in the lower CR zones, except now there's no scaling to make their XP gain keep up for the gap before they can move on to the next area.

This is one of the things where you can make an argument that makes sense in either direction. Fortunately, we'll be able to get the answer with certainty once players have adjusted their habits to these changes, so such dialectics are unnecessary.

[mrm3ntalist]

Are you trying to justify powerbuilding or are you agreeing with me that it's not really a priority to tailor content for powerbuilders' convenience?

Is there something wrong about powerbuilding? Is it against the rules or frowned upon lately?

[FallingStar]

It feels even less imperative that content be provided for the convenience of powerbuilders.

Some people made a mistake while leveling the first time and it needs to be fixed.

This kind of small change to your level 30's build is something I'd think of as powerbuilding.

It feels even less imperative that content be provided for the convenience of powerbuilders.

Some people retired a character and made another.

This isn't a small change to your build.

The epic content is geared towards powerbuilders.

Are you trying to justify powerbuilding or are you agreeing with me that it's not really a priority to tailor content for powerbuilders' convenience?

Fixing a mistake isn't powerbuilding. It's just fixing a mistake. I suppose RcRing for the purpose of powerbuilding in this instance would be to RcR an already viable toon to make it more optimized. I can't be the only one who's simply RcRed to correct a glaring error I made the first time around that would have resulted in an almost unplayable mess (like forgetting to take a level of blackguard on a feat-granting level and therefore missing Divine Shield which was the main point of the blackguard levels to begin with, lol.) Frankly, I don't like the implication that I'm a powerbuilder for doing so. Because I'm definitely not.

Retiring a character and RcRing it to make another was mentioned as an example of why someone would use the RcR bot for a reason that's not powerbuilding.

I am not in favor of powerbuilding or against it. If that's what makes players happy, they can knock themselves out. That was the wonderful thing about BG--it catered to a wide variety of play styles. The point I was making is that the epic content, currently, is geared towards powerbuilders, and yet the upper management is enacting unilateral changes to discourage powerbuilding/powerleveling without asking the community what they want. Pick one or the other, but don't encourage it with making the epic content a drag without a powerbuild or big group, then discourage it with changes that don't actually address the difficulty.

[FallingStar]

Removing scaling mobs hurts non powerbuilds more than they do powerbuilds, anyway, given that the latter will be able to move on to another area sooner, get more XP, level up faster, while non powerbuilds are stuck in the lower CR zones, except now there's no scaling to make their XP gain keep up for the gap before they can move on to the next area.

This is one of the things where you can make an argument that makes sense in either direction. Fortunately, we'll be able to get the answer with certainty once players have adjusted their habits to these changes, so such dialectics are unnecessary.

Got it. Bob's opinion is unnecessary and several players saying they are wholly unhappy with the change doesn't count as the adjustment you're trying to monitor.

[gedweyignasia]

Is there something wrong about powerbuilding? Is it against the rules or frowned upon lately?

It's not against the rules. Powerbuilding is a focus on designing your character to be most mechanically suited to our server's content. It's a natural and understandable choice in a system with incentives for mechanical performance. However, because powerbuilding is (by the above definition) the most mechanically favored playstyle in our server environment, there's no imperative to further accommodate powerbuilders. I hope that clears things up!

[Blaze]

I can assure you that recent changes have penalized non optimized builds even more.

There are a number of elements that indicate that epic content is aimed at strong builds (not powerbuilds)

1) Mobs have various DR, resistances and immunities that they shouldn't have from PnP

2) Their stats have been increased to give a consistent CR over nonepic areas. This means that any build that struggled in non epic areas is now forced not to venture outside of BG/Soubar

3) Most areas have casters (arcane / divine) that first use dispel magic, the casters themselves have so many HPs that it is not possible to kill them before they use at least 2 or 3 spells.

4) Without CR scaling you are forced to go to much more difficult areas and with a design that is not that of a leveling area (such as Xvart or Troll Cave could be). This means that you have more risk of dying and losing XP, slowing progress even more resulting in increased frustration.


EDIT: so the decision is to make life more difficult for everyone instead of helping those with RP builds, it seems obvious to me! Instead of making difficult areas easier, you made everything more difficult, in short, with your own hands, you incentivized what you wanted to correct.

All of this has such a huge flaw that it seems impossible to me that you and Valefort cannot see it!

[gedweyignasia]

I can assure you that recent changes have penalized non optimized builds even more.

I promise you this is something we're going to be looking at when we evaluate the impact of the changes.

Without CR scaling you are forced to go to much more difficult areas and with a design that is not that of a leveling area (such as Xvart or Troll Cave could be). This means that you have more risk of dying and losing XP, slowing progress even more resulting in increased frustration.

"Leveling areas" aren't a design principle we really talk about when creating content. To my knowledge, their existence is more of an accident than a design decision. We're aware that they exist, and we definitely try to be conscious of the impact that their alteration or removal has on players' experience.

[mrm3ntalist]

Is there something wrong about powerbuilding? Is it against the rules or frowned upon lately?

It's not against the rules. Powerbuilding is a focus on designing your character to be most mechanically suited to our server's content. It's a natural and understandable choice in a system with incentives for mechanical performance. However, because powerbuilding is (by the above definition) the most mechanically favored playstyle in our server environment, there's no imperative to further accommodate powerbuilders. I hope that clears things up!

All changes in mechanics "accommodate" powerbuilders. Whether it is nerfing or buffing something. And no, what you just said makes zero sense. Powerbuilding, or playing the game because of the mechanics is "the most mechanically favored playstyle in our server environment" (your words) and you do not want to cater on changing some mechanics because it affects the majority of players that are interested in mechanics... Yikes

[Planehopper]

"Leveling areas" aren't a design principle we really talk about when creating content. To my knowledge, their existence is more of an accident than a design decision. We're aware that they exist, and we definitely try to be conscious of the impact that their alteration or removal has on players' experience.

As the former lead builder I will just say that this is inaccurate. Areas have always been designed with varying levels of xp gain, play speed, use, and feel. "Leveling areas" have always been a thing, going back to the first maps on the server, and are popular for a reason.

That all areas should be equally productive and equally used is a new way of looking at things that, to my knowledge, is not something that was ever discussed. I would think that would be something mentioned to builders..

Telling the players they shouldn't race to 30, and then having every major campaign, story, and arc revolve around the same set of level 30 characters is a bit of a disconnect.

This server is successful because we engage players in ways THEY want to engage, whether that is heavy RP or peaceful grind, not because we get them to do what WE want as staff.

[gedweyignasia]

Areas have always been designed with varying levels of xp gain, play speed, use, and feel.

Absolutely!

"Leveling areas" have always been a thing, going back to the first maps on the server, and are popular for a reason.

This is the part I disagree with. To my knowledge, nobody designed anything for as long as I've been on staff in order to create an opportunity for circle grinding.

That all areas should be equally productive and equally used is a new way of looking at things that, to my knowledge, is not something that was ever discussed. I would think that would be something mentioned to builders..

This is a discussion for the dev forums.

Telling the players they shouldn't race to 30, and then having every major campaign, story, and arc revolve around the same set of level 30 characters is a bit of a disconnect.

This is a discussion for the DM-Dev forums.