CoCL Suggestion

[Steve]

Hello!

As it is now, the COCL PrC has these requirements:

Requirements
Race: Elf or half-elf (not drow or half-drow).
Alignment: Any non-evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Feats: Martial Weapons, Heavy Armor, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword, Rapier, Scimitar, Shortsword or Falchion).
Skills: Diplomacy 4, Lore: Religion 2.
Deity Restrictions: Must worship Corellon Larethian.

I underlined what I want to address in a suggestion, and that is the TYPE of weapons supported.

In 3.5 PnP, the requirements for COCL are:

To qualify to become a Champion of Corellon Larethian, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Race: Elf or half-elf
Alignment: Any nonevil.
Skills: Diplomacy 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks.
Feats: Proficient with all martial weapons and heavy armor, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mounted Combat.
Base Attack Bonus: +7.
Special: Must worship Corellon Larethian.
Special: In addition to the feats above, you must also take either Weapon Focus (longsword) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven thinblade or elven courtblade).

We obviously do not have the Elven Thinblade or Elven Courtblade weapons as Types on BGTSCC.

My suggestion is this: allow COCL to also qualify with Weapon Focus—and thus use—of also Bastard/Katana sword (Exotic Prof. req.) and daggers. And Short Spear, just because Elves like short spears! And to let Elegant Strike work with these weapons as well.

Cheers.

[izzul]

i hate to admit that i agree with Steve suggestion. haaaaaate it!

[Steve]

i hate to admit that i agree with Steve suggestion. haaaaaate it!

I appreciate your support! Even if it drives you crazy!!!

[Rhifox]

Dagger - PnP CoC does not qualify from the elven lightblade (which is their dagger), so a dagger is not appropriate.

Katana - This is a Kara-Turan weapon, they are not associated with elves.

Shortspear - Not a sword.


Bastard sword would be fine, though.

[Steve]

Dagger - PnP CoC does not qualify from the elven lightblade (which is their dagger), so a dagger is not appropriate.
Katana - This is a Kara-Turan weapon, they are not associated with elves.
Shortspear - Not a sword.
Bastard sword would be fine, though.

I hear your response. However, PnP CoC also does not qualify from scimitar or falchion, but they've been added.

Why I see that a rapier or the short sword qualifies, is because of exactly the Elven Lightblade:

Elven Lightblade

This rapier-like exotic weapon is the size of a short sword but weighs only as much as a dagger. Dexterous elf fighters and rogues favor it. Its thin, flexible blade slips easily into the seams of armor or between the ribs of a foe. Some elf nobles carry a lightblade - often decorated with intricate filigree and tiny gemstones - as a sign of their station, even if they aren't proficient in its use.
Characters proficient with the elven lightblade may treat it as a rapier or a short sword for the purpose of any of the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.

Maybe it is asking too much, for another light/small weapon option, for the CoC, besides Short Sword. Funny enough, I'm not interested in Kukri—"This heavy, curved dagger has its sharp edge on the inside of the curve."—qualifying, but...if that was deemed more like a lightblade than dagger, so be it.

I understand that CoC is a swordmaster, "...the very paragon of elven swordsmanship." Just again, some light weapon options, because my experience is that short swords are lacking in variety, on BGTSCC (at least from the RIG).

But thank you for adding Bastard Sword, if that is something that will be done. Cheers.

[Rhifox]

I hear your response. However, PnP CoC also does not qualify from scimitar or falchion, but they've been added.

Because these two weapons are similar to the thinblade and courtblade respectively.

Elven Lightblade

This rapier-like exotic weapon is the size of a short sword but weighs only as much as a dagger. Dexterous elf fighters and rogues favor it. Its thin, flexible blade slips easily into the seams of armor or between the ribs of a foe. Some elf nobles carry a lightblade - often decorated with intricate filigree and tiny gemstones - as a sign of their station, even if they aren't proficient in its use.
Characters proficient with the elven lightblade may treat it as a rapier or a short sword for the purpose of any of the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.

Ugh. DnD really needs to learn that rapiers are not short weapons. A weapon the size of a short sword is not "rapier-like".

Maybe it is asking too much, for another light/small weapon option, for the CoC, besides Short Sword. Funny enough, I'm not interested in Kukri—"This heavy, curved dagger has its sharp edge on the inside of the curve."—qualifying, but...if that was deemed more like a lightblade than dagger, so be it.

Kukri would be even less appropriate.

my experience is that short swords are lacking in variety, on BGTSCC (at least from the RIG).

And daggers aren't?

Anyway, I can consider including the dagger.

[Steve]

And daggers aren't?

Anyway, I can consider including the dagger.

I've seen far more daggers, both from the RIG and the NPC merchants, than short swords. I know the database is outdated, but....

[Ravial]

I find the additions pointless.

Frankly speaking, we do not have either Elven Courtblade nor do we have the Lightblade. Adding dagger focus to the class is against the concept of it as Champion of Corellon is meant to be a front-face warrior. Daggers aren't a weapon of war of any sort unless we're talking about giving mercy-killing.


For Corellon, and overall in elven culture, Longsword is the staple, traditional and legendary weapon. Longsword-esque weapons, such as Scimitar, Falchion or heavy rapier (rapiers with a wide, heavy blade. Those exist.) is what the class should be going for.

Spears, daggers, katanas (which are just too foreign for elves) and such are just not appropriate for their faith. Bastard sword is fine, I agree. Mostly because bastard swords are IRL just longswords under a different name

In my honest opinion, I think the requirements should be left as it is, maybe with the only addition being bastard sword as a possible weapon focus feat choice.

[mrm3ntalist]

I would love the synergy of CoC with finessable weapons and DEX/INT builds but it feels wrong for a class with a heavy armor requirement. Personally, I would have removed all finessable weapon (rapiers and short swords)... i mean short swords... really? It is difficult to justify with a straight face, denying steve's suggestion when short swords were allowed.

[Rhifox]

I find the additions pointless.

Frankly speaking, we do not have either Elven Courtblade nor do we have the Lightblade. Adding dagger focus to the class is against the concept of it as Champion of Corellon is meant to be a front-face warrior. Daggers aren't a weapon of war of any sort unless we're talking about giving mercy-killing.

Weeeell. It's a class about swordsmanship. And, other than shields, daggers are the most common secondary weapon when wielding one-handed swords.

Also, daggers have plenty of applications in war as a close quarters grappling weapon to jab in between the gaps in armor (ironically making them more useful when fighting other heavily armored opponents than many swords).

I would love the synergy of CoC with finessable weapons and DEX/INT builds but it feels wrong for a class with a heavy armor requirement. Personally, I would have removed all finessable weapon (rapiers and short swords)... i mean short swords... really? It is difficult to justify with a straight face, denying steve's suggestion when short swords were allowed.

Aside from the longsword, all pnp CoC weapons (elven thinblade, elven courtblade) are finessable. So while I agree heavy armor + finesse weapons is a bit odd, it's accurate to the original design!

[Steve]

Aside from the longsword, all pnp CoC weapons (elven thinblade, elven courtblade) are finessable. So while I agree heavy armor + finesse weapons is a bit odd, it's accurate to the original design!

I would hope we'd all agree that if we could have the Elven thinblade and/or courtblade IG, we'd have the best (re)solution. I don't expect that being a possibility, so if rapier and short sword are "covering" the absence, then it works. I still don't understand scimitar and falchion being supported, but hey...Elves.

I can't say whether the argument boils down to aesthetics or mechanics being the "problem," in regard to daggers or bastard swords being supported. If Finesseble weapons are currently supported as a fighting style—DEX over STR—does daggers ruin the look? Do Bastard Swords OP the mechanics?

Anyway, thanks for the consideration.

[Rhifox]

Aside from the longsword, all pnp CoC weapons (elven thinblade, elven courtblade) are finessable. So while I agree heavy armor + finesse weapons is a bit odd, it's accurate to the original design!

I would hope we'd all agree that if we could have the Elven thinblade and/or courtblade IG, we'd have the best (re)solution. I don't expect that being a possibility, so if rapier and short sword are "covering" the absence, then it works. I still don't understand scimitar and falchion being supported, but hey...Elves.

In many artworks, thinblades and courtblades are curved slashing swords, with the latter being a two-handed weapon. Ergo, scimitar and falchion.

[Steve]

In many artworks, thinblades and courtblades are curved slashing swords, with the latter being a two-handed weapon. Ergo, scimitar and falchion.

Yep! Like I tried to point out, it's flip-flopping between aesthetics and mechanics!!

Courtblade, Elven
These exotic swords seem impossibly long and thin, tapering to a needle-like point. One edge of the blade is sharpened along the entire length, and the opposite edge is sharpened only only for the final quarter near the tip. A courtblade has a basket-shaped hilt (usually made to resemble leaves and vines), a long grip, and a heavy pommel. The weapon is intended for thrusting attacks, but the wielder can slash with it as well.

A character with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven courtblade) feat finds the weapon well suited for quick feints and thrusts. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat with this weapon, though it is remains a two-handed weapon and not a light weapon.

Falchion can't be finessed. Scimitar, neither. So...essentially both the aesthetics AND the mechanics are being "broken" to...justify?!!?

[Steve]

Bastard sword would be fine, though.

Hello!

Did Bastard Sword ever get added to the weapons supported by CoCL? I'd like to add update the Wiki if so. Cheers.