Shifter - Epic Elemental Forms - Unlimited Use

[Wyatt]

I have a suggestion to allow shifters who forgo one of their shifter forms to take the epic elemental form unlimited use of the elemental forms.
What I don't know is this would be problematic mechanically but I feel like the whole purpose of shifter is to swap between forms often and repeatedly. The limited use of the epic elemental forms sorta pigeon hole them into being niche use or always use and unable to embrace the true formlessness of shifter. I am not looking for a mechanical advantage and understand if that is the limiter. Its just really nice for RP to be able to pop to any form available through polymorph, shapechange, or shifter mechanics unrestrictedly.


Moved to mechanics b/c I'm an idiot and put it in the wrong place...

[Steve]

A build with Druid 5 / Shifter 20 will have 7 Wild Shape uses per Rest.

EDIT: but will have unlimited Shifter shapes, polymorphing and shapechanging.

The feat Extra Wild Shape also exists on BGTSCC.

[Wyatt]

It is indeed plenty of uses for anything needed mechanically. For my RP my character shifts constantly, sometimes 4 or 5 times per battle and frequently in RP also. I was just wondering if it would be possible with the elemental forms as well. If not, I'll work within the limitation.

[Steve]

I feel you. I play my Shifter PC almost more than my main these days. I wish for nothing more than the ability to shift directly from Form to Form, to Shape to Shape—having to go back to original form every time is the weakest part of the character concept.

But we are limited to the NWN2 engine mechanics.

Thing is, Shifter has its own unique forms. Druid has ALWAYS had to deal with limited Wild Shapes per Rest. If you gave Shifter unlimited Wild Shaping, you would essentially go waaaaaay overboard with Shifter, which is already top tier.

Even though I'd love it, I also know how unbalanced it would be.

[DaloLorn]

Could you spell it out for the dummies in the audience, Steve? I don't see how it makes shifters much more powerful...

[Steve]

Could you spell it out for the dummies in the audience, Steve? I don't see how it makes shifters much more powerful...

I don’t know if it makes a Shifter more powerful per se, but it would give something that every Druid PC would also want. And what about Bear Warriors?!? They suck eggs compared to Shifter already, mechanically. Have you played the Legendary Bear form yet?!?

Wild Shape X uses per Rest is a Core 3.5 Rules thing. ConsiderIng Shifter already has unlimited Shifter forms, it’s just not really needed?!?

Also, Epic Elemental Forms are already so ridiculously OP that to allow a PC to infinitely use those forms, is like saying we should also have infinite Rage for Barbarians.

I love my OP builds, and to rofflestomp. But even I see the limits for fairness! Lol.

It’s also just my opinion!

[DaloLorn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Epic Elemental Shapes are subject to the same high durations as regular wildshapes, right? So any druid (or shifter) with that feat can already use them indefinitely, so long as they don't feel any need to change form. (And don't get forced out of it too many times, but that's basically a non-issue, as the only spells that force you out of shape are PvP-only, and you still have more daily wildshapes than the enemy is likely to have the ability to negate.)

Considering your assertion that those shapes are ridiculously OP, the amount of mechanical contexts where one might derive a benefit from shifting in and out of them is near-zero, so this would largely be an RP improvement. An improvement that also happens to be perfectly in line with the PRC's lore.

Also, a properly-built barbarian can already have functionally infinite rage uses. At 10 rages per day, each lasting around 3 minutes (maybe less if your pre-Rage CON stinks, but probably more due to the built-in 20-round minimum of even a modestly-buffed Epic Rage, the extra 5 rounds bought by Extend Rage, and the likelihood that your base CON will be high enough to qualify for epic CON feats), you get approximately 30 minutes of raging per rest cycle. Those 30 minutes are already more than enough to let you blindly rage through the entire 20 minutes it takes for you to be able to rest again, but then you can also factor in the fact that you can conserve rage charges by opting not to refresh your rage while out of combat.

[Steve]

You miss a few things, Dalo.

1. Changing of Core 3.5 rules for convenience.
2. Whirlwind Frenzy Barbarians.
3. DM Events.
4. Wild Shaping in/out of Epic Elemental shapes to combat different mobs with different shapes best suited to rofflestomp, would definitely be a mechanical advantage, if unlimited use per Rest. Right now, a Druid or Druid-Shifter must be tactical, and likely stick with 1-2 forms for an extended time, or, run out.
5. Unlimited Wild Shaping then leaves more uses of Wild Shape for Oaken Resilience and Elephants Hide, which keeps the Druid and/or Druid-Shifter unkillable forever.

But hey, if Staff thinks it is a good idea, then I’ll use it to my own advantage!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Epic Elemental Shapes are subject to the same high durations as regular wildshapes, right? So any druid (or shifter) with that feat can already use them indefinitely, so long as they don't feel any need to change form. (And don't get forced out of it too many times, but that's basically a non-issue, as the only spells that force you out of shape are PvP-only, and you still have more daily wildshapes than the enemy is likely to have the ability to negate.)

Considering your assertion that those shapes are ridiculously OP, the amount of mechanical contexts where one might derive a benefit from shifting in and out of them is near-zero, so this would largely be an RP improvement. An improvement that also happens to be perfectly in line with the PRC's lore.

Also, a properly-built barbarian can already have functionally infinite rage uses. At 10 rages per day, each lasting around 3 minutes (maybe less if your pre-Rage CON stinks, but probably more due to the built-in 20-round minimum of even a modestly-buffed Epic Rage, the extra 5 rounds bought by Extend Rage, and the likelihood that your base CON will be high enough to qualify for epic CON feats), you get approximately 30 minutes of raging per rest cycle. Those 30 minutes are already more than enough to let you blindly rage through the entire 20 minutes it takes for you to be able to rest again, but then you can also factor in the fact that you can conserve rage charges by opting not to refresh your rage while out of combat.

[DaloLorn]

1. Been done before.

2. Fair enough, they won't get 30 minutes. They're still going to get the required 20 minutes if their CON's anyhow decent... and get close to 20 even if it's not. (Unless they don't take Extend and Extra Rage, in which case they're screwed.)

3. DM events can also require you to not use epic elemental shapes at all, but that doesn't make it a particularly helpful balancing argument.

4. I find this argument unconvincing. Do different mobs within a single dungeon require different elemental shapes to defeat? Or are you saying that the elementals aren't sufficiently OP to render most shifter shapes irrelevant (in which case the mechanical benefit of infinite elemental shapes is greatly diminished)?

5. This is an issue if you're also given unlimited Oaken Resilience/Elephant's Hide. However, if this is not the case, then I'm still not convinced that the total uptime of those feats per rest cycle would be significantly increased.

6. Not actually on staff anymore, nor would I have had the authority to unilaterally approve the OP's suggestion in the first place.

[Theodore01]

4. I find this argument unconvincing. Do different mobs within a single dungeon require different elemental shapes to defeat? Or are you saying that the elementals aren't sufficiently OP to render most shifter shapes irrelevant (in which case the mechanical benefit of infinite elemental shapes is greatly diminished)?
5. This is an issue if you're also given unlimited Oaken Resilience/Elephant's Hide. However, if this is not the case, then I'm still not convinced that the total uptime of those feats per rest cycle would be significantly increased.

It's more an issue of having 12 more strong unlimited clickable attacks at your disposal. (8 from elder elementals + 4 from legendary animals)

Switching between forms without any rest restriction allows for constant use (spam) of these abilities all the time.

Maybe we should restrict a shifters shaping ability also a bit. How about one shift per shifter level?

[Steve]

4. I find this argument unconvincing. Do different mobs within a single dungeon require different elemental shapes to defeat? Or are you saying that the elementals aren't sufficiently OP to render most shifter shapes irrelevant (in which case the mechanical benefit of infinite elemental shapes is greatly diminished)?
5. This is an issue if you're also given unlimited Oaken Resilience/Elephant's Hide. However, if this is not the case, then I'm still not convinced that the total uptime of those feats per rest cycle would be significantly increased.

It's more an issue of having 12 more strong unlimited clickable attacks at your disposal. (8 from elder elementals + 4 from legendary animals)

Switching between forms without any rest restriction allows for constant use (spam) of these abilities all the time.

Maybe we should restrict a shifters shaping ability also a bit. How about one shift per shifter level?

Uh-oh…the legendary bear got poked!!!

[DaloLorn]

4. I find this argument unconvincing. Do different mobs within a single dungeon require different elemental shapes to defeat? Or are you saying that the elementals aren't sufficiently OP to render most shifter shapes irrelevant (in which case the mechanical benefit of infinite elemental shapes is greatly diminished)?
5. This is an issue if you're also given unlimited Oaken Resilience/Elephant's Hide. However, if this is not the case, then I'm still not convinced that the total uptime of those feats per rest cycle would be significantly increased.

It's more an issue of having 12 more strong unlimited clickable attacks at your disposal. (8 from elder elementals + 4 from legendary animals)

Switching between forms without any rest restriction allows for constant use (spam) of these abilities all the time.

There may be ways to solve that issue. Shifter shapes have a 6-second cooldown; epic shapes could have a cooldown comparable to the cooldown of their clickies. Alternatively, the clickies could put each other on a shared cooldown.

That being said, you've offered the first compelling argument as to why the OP's proposal shouldn't be implemented! I forgot shifter shapes weren't the only ones with special abilities...

Maybe we should restrict a shifters shaping ability also a bit. How about one shift per shifter level?

Good luck convincing Matelener to demolish the literal foundation of the design for his PRC. (Or any actual shifters to go along with it quietly, for that matter...)