Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[Meepy]

Heck it. i'll post on the forums for once.
This is honestly an issue I've seen across many avenues of roleplay that I've encountered in my 20+ years of RP. I believe it stems from a number of things to be honest and not just blaming it on this server or one faction of RP. That's a lazy excuse.

* A server with a low population - with smaller numbers the different communities within the server have smaller circles which makes interactions between each even harder. 2 bad guys stuck in bad guy area and 4 good guys stuck in good guy area means the opportunities for interaction are minimal and makes the server feel even more thinned out in number. It's hard to build up the Thayans or Zhents (random examples) when there's only a handful of active people that can participate and make it feel full and alive and thriving. That's not to say people shouldn't try, but may be why it's been hard to really boost those numbers up to feel like a faction is making an impact.

* Player mindset - This is a tough one, but it's just a sad fact that some players are either RP focused or PVP focused in their conflicts. I have seen examples even on this server of those two mindsets clashing and it turning into an OOC drama-fest. I'm not saying who is or isn't right in these mindsets, but I do have my own personal preference. One guy wants to RP/dice roll out a conflict while the other thinks that PVP skills will determine the winner. Usually ends in OOC disputes and the roleplay ending or retcons happening and there goes all the fun conflict roleplay.

* W's and L's - Some people just can't help wanting to get the "W" in conflicts and don't take kindly to "L's" as the kids these days say (W=Win L=Lose.) I'm not saying everyone is like this, but I have indeed seen it before on all sides. It's hard to get it through people's heads sometimes that taking an "L" can prompt some freaking amazing roleplay which furthers IC conflicts and struggles and the opportunities for redemption etc. (And I'm talking BOTH good and bad guys I've seen this on.)

* OOC talk in game - Just the other day my "good" guy was witnessing 3 "evil" guys causing a scene ICly and I was excited to get into the conflict and create more RP not just for the goodies but also for the baddies. After a short period of time the "evil" guys devolved their conflict into full on OOC screaming at each other about how the interaction/rp went and one of them ragequit and the whole thing just essentially got retconned and everyone left and went about their day. It was incredibly disappointing. I honestly think OOC talk should not be allowed in game unless it's strictly for mechanics issues (game bugs etc.) as the OOC talk just completely destroys the RP, especially when it's disagreements in how a situation was handled. Just roleplay out your situation and if it's a serious rulebreak or something, screenshot and report it on the forums (this is just a suggestion.)

I know there's more factors than this and these are just a few examples of the build up of things that cause this kind of issue. I honestly don't think there is an easy answer to 'fix' something like this as it is something that affects and stems from both the good and evil sides. People are hard to change.

I'm someone who typically plays "good" guys but I am always thrilled when I have some big arch nemesis to compete with. Winning and losing against said arch nemesis and pulling in more factions between the two to create more story lines for all the players. This is the ideal world I wish I could RP in again. God I miss having an rp villain that could challenge my character and win and lose in various scenarios and not have OOC drama fests. And I know some great "evil" players want the same.

<3

[Meepy]

I know my post may have turned slightly from the original point of this thread, but was a subject that was being mentioned in follow up responses.

I meant to also add to the main point of the thread that I think it's fair for an evil or good character to avoid other characters they know to be the opposite of their morality. If it fits in your RP and that's how you want that character to react, go for it?

Personally, I try my best to rp my character and her morals as best I can while also dealing with the fact that the server is small and cutting off rp interactions with a few people cuts my chances at roleplay down to almost zero. So often times if my good character knows there is an evil around, instead of just walking away, she may remain vigilant and cautious. I try to come up with rp reasons for her to remain and interact.. maybe she can get intel out of them? maybe she can (failingly) try to preach to them and show them the light? etc.

That's not to say every "goodie" should do this, it's just my personal preference so I don't cut out RP possibilities on a low population server. <3 It often can lead to some interesting stories too. But that's no shade on those who have a different character story and rp preference to take a moral high ground and be even more cautious about who they surround themselves with.

LETS RP.
<3

[Steve]

* W's and L's - Some people just can't help wanting to get the "W" in conflicts and don't take kindly to "L's" as the kids these days say (W=Win L=Lose.) I'm not saying everyone is like this, but I have indeed seen it before on all sides. It's hard to get it through people's heads sometimes that taking an "L" can prompt some freaking amazing roleplay which furthers IC conflicts and struggles and the opportunities for redemption etc. (And I'm talking BOTH good and bad guys I've seen this on.)

Always an issue.

Though, Winning and Losing is poorly defined, I'd say. Not by your/this post, but as a general aspect of Role-play on BGTSCC (we might as well really just look at how BGTSCC has existed, does exist, in terms, since this is where we are having the issue).

Perhaps, many players that have played Evil feel and have real experience never experience a "Win." This of course can be defined in so many ways. But when you as a player don't really experience ANY sort of "Win(s)," the interest to continue on with the RP can easily disappear.

Unfortunately, it is important to just ask the question: "how could Big Evil remotely win in the canon of the Sword Coast, in the Year(s) we are playing in." This in itself is a reality that "goes against" Evil RP, on the grand scale. So, it requires Custom Changes, another added effort...and something that Players themselves cannot just do on their own.

Additionally, I'm going to assume 99% of players have never experience a gratifying "Loss" either. THIS is the most important issue, I'd say, in terms of how to have Evil vs. Good live in a healthy way on BGTSCC. I'm not saying that a loss should also be a win, like in T-ball, but to incentivize Players to accept Losses over Wins now and then, there needs to be a structure where Players can swing the result in their favor, next time, with effort. Or, better said, that Losses are not just "take your hit and cya laterz..." result.

I can't tell you how many players have confided in me over the years about how alone and challenged they felt trying to develop or just keep up an Evil Aligned PC, and even more so a guild/faction, on BGTSCC. The success rate is just low. And this is very likely why so many Players DO roll up an Evil PC, but keep that Evil quiet and hidden, because they know that it would get them just a whole bunch of less, would they be more out and active about it.

There is this running saying that goes: "Evil acts, Good reacts." That has a ton of truth to it—just look at how DMs operate!!! —but it puts a yuuuge onus on the players of Evil PCs, to be so "busy." And, just sitting around a table online and IC, chatting about "I'm so evil that even my Hell Hound is scared of me..." banter is just meh. Just try imagining writing a Forum Journal from the perspective of an Evil PC, and how not only difficult that would be, but if anyone would even find it interesting (or, better yet, of such value that such an act would accrue rewards, which imho, IS one form of Win!).

[Kayle Walker]

At this point my question is: how can this be resolved? I am asking honestly and out of curiosity because I can't think of a solution myself. We can't force people to play evil to fill an evil quota, if people want to play good there's nothing we can do. Inclusivity can help to some extent. Personally if someone makes even a modicum of attempt to keep babies sacrifices secret I make an effort to include them, but if someone is blatantly and openly evil I can see why it may take a great effort for the majority of people to find a way to ask their help in a plot when the place is full of good aligned people they can ask.

I have to reiterate that maybe just being frank with evil's niche in this server (like, a word of law from the DMs) might help to set expectations. If there is a future for them, then say so, or vice-versa.

[Zar'shalee]

Playing evil is entirely pointless and utterly unfulfilling on this server.

Sadly I must agree

[artemitavik]

Is it actually a problem for a good-aligned character to not want to seriously socially engage with someone they know to be evil (or even just reasonably assume to be evil or at least creepy, based on hard data such as the number of severed fingers and ears someone happens to be wearing as a necklace, overt evil deity iconography, being covered in fresh blood and hairy scalps, and/or being witnessed kicking puppies)?

That's as much a question as a statement, in response to the number of comments regarding the goodies packing up their things and leaving the fire circle when the baddies come to sit down.

From an IC perspective, not engaging with someone who egregiously violates your morals is just being sensible (with the notable and likely singular exception of attempted redemption arcs). I certainly wouldn't expect evil characters to be super happy to entertain my good characters either.

That makes perfect sense and emoting that the character is leaving with an frown or feels unsettled by the unholy aura around the evil PC covered in symbols of Bhaal is RP as well. What I saw happening was people leaving the place without typing a single word and one is left wondering if they were IC leaving because they were unsettled or if they were going afk or left to do shopping. Or if they even acknowledge their presence.

That said, I can also see this is not a problem just restricted to the lack of emotes at the campfire. This is a problem that also exacerbates during events or attempts to affect the world as there are less evil toons than good ones (or at least those who are openly evil) and as much as the DM team may attempt to level the field, the party that has more players will send in more ideas and more solutions that means more chances to sort the situation before the blatantly evil faction they would never cooperate with.

At this point my question is: how can this be resolved? I am asking honestly and out of curiosity because I can't think of a solution myself. We can't force people to play evil to fill an evil quota, if people want to play good there's nothing we can do. Inclusivity can help to some extent. Personally if someone makes even a modicum of attempt to keep babies sacrifices secret I make an effort to include them, but if someone is blatantly and openly evil I can see why it may take a great effort for the majority of people to find a way to ask their help in a plot when the place is full of good aligned people they can ask.

I have to agree that Good/Evil socialization is indeed an issue. However, it is also a valid RP point.

Derik has plenty of people that he just doesn't like for instance. And therefore, he will simply not engage a conversation with them, or deal with them, or adventure with them if he has a choice, or even bother staying about with them long enough to have a PVP situation start up. There are times I enjoy the "ok, let's have at it" RP, but when I wanna futz about for my afternoon after 10 hours of Insurance Agent-ing and having everyone and their brother bitch at me about EVERYTHING, immediately going into RP that's a bunch of direct conflict is just not relaxing. And thus either I don't do it, or if it's the only RP available, I log and do something else.

Likewise, there is honestly very little RP reason most of the time that a LG paladin is going to sit down over a beer with a CE warlock and talk about the weather. There just... isn't. And that goes back and forth to varying degrees. Evil and Good characters don't socialize all that much or often in a lot of cases, and really, that's pretty realistic to me as both sides are just hostile to each other's goals and moralities. Why would I willingly hang out with people who just piss me off? You wouldn't do it in RL, why would you expect characters to do it outside of certain events where they have to work together or everyone dies (which can get old REALLY quick when event after event is that way, because really, how often WOULD they work together?)

I mean, maybe pose out or something as you leave and not be OOCly rude about it, but this is expected and legit RP, getting up and leaving when you don't wanna deal with someone.

As for Alm's question of how to resolve this sort of thing with inclusion? I'm not sure you can just "have it resolved." Evil people aren't going to go to good folks for help, and good people aren't going to go to evil people for help. It makes perfect sense to NOT ask your enemies. When I was a kid I was bullied a lot. When I wanted help with someone, I sure as hell didn't go to someone who did that who I saw as a threat. I went to like minded kids who I got along with.

The culture of BG here in a server (and technically in canon) and across the sword coast is Good leaning. Are there evil folks? All over, of course. Are they're clearly obvious evil folks? Yep. And people simply avoid them or block their entry. Are their subtle evil folks? Yep. And unless they're good at it, they don't stay in cover and such forever, because people find out, and tell other people. Is there a RP bias towards evil on BG? Totally. That said, I've also seen it bias the other way in events from time to time so that evil "wins". However, more often yes, Team Evil tends to get short ended a fair bit. That's because people want heros to win, and as a rule, evil aren't "heros" they're villans. They may be "heroes for the other side" but as Rhifox has pointed out, Good and Evil are objective, real forces in Forgotten Realms and thus "heroes for the other side" are... villains. Sorry guys.

I know this probably didn't help anything with suggestions of how to have a "level playing field", but I honestly can't think of a way outside of full culture change and overhaul of the entire setting. and honestly, DnD is set up to play heros and goodies far smoother than evils. It just is the default function of the game. There are of course ways to play the evil, but if you look at the modules, scripted adventures, novels, settings, and such, it is heavily biased towards playing a good/neutral character mix doing good things.

[mrm3ntalist]

Playing evil is entirely pointless and utterly unfulfilling on this server.

There arent any other servers.

[artemitavik]

Well, there are, technically. Haven, Sigil, and Rise of Neverwinter. Though I'm not sure playing evil on any of those really would be any better. (I know sh-- about RON though)

[Wolfrayne]

Honestly one of the things that continues to stop me from investing my time here as much as i used to is the lack of interesting things going on for people who are evil. At the end of the day good always prevails, hooray for the fiends being banished or the undead being destroyed or the next world ending threat being sent to the abyss..

There is no risk. There is no consequences for anyone and there is no motivation to attempt anything evil because once you are found out its game over even if you win and people will avoid you..

Honestly i have invested most of my time in other servers/games where there is a risk to everything. Permadeath is a very real thing..(happens a lot less than you think because people actually roleplay smarter) And there is a good balance of good and evil.. soo much so in fact that when things get out of hand from the bad guys raiding people etc the good guys usually band together for a common cause.

Here it doesnt matter. You cant win so why even bother? Why invest the time and RP. T

[mrm3ntalist]

Well, there are, technically. Haven, Sigil, and Rise of Neverwinter. Though I'm not sure playing evil on any of those really would be any better. (I know sh-- about RON though)

There is only Haven but there, terms such as "penetration" "going after someone" etc have totally different meaning than BG. Servers with an average of 1 or 5 players, basically are single player games/campaigns. There is only BG

Honestly i have invested most of my time in other servers/games where there is a risk to everything.

There are no other games with the consequences you describe. There are sweaty pvp games such as Tarkov where there are immediate consequences but nothing similar than what is being described here - player actions affecting the world on a larger scale. BGTSCC is the only place where a character's action's have consequences, especially among the playerbase.

If by affecting the world you mean commanding armies, using exotic teleport devices to transport troops and TPK opponents/settlements/cities then see the effects of your actions update the world ( update in game locations ) then that is a lot to ask even for an AAA game

[mastajabba]

All I know is that EVERY TIME I have reached out to “team evil” to try to work together on a story. I get “left on read”. So I dunno what they want unless it just them an DMs off in a corner doing things. Away from everyone else.

I offered to have my good guy taken POW aim this war. Since I feel a lot of it seems to be just Combat RP. Figured someone would like to have a prisoner. Try to RP a prisoner exchange something what ever. But

At this time I am more inclined to believe they just wanna cry about the situation instead of actively change the state of RP. So que sera.. sera…

[artemitavik]

No no, I have friends that play both Sigil and Rise of Neverwinter. Sigil I know has ongoing DM events because I get pings and hear about it. Rise of Neverwinter, don't know. *shrug*

But I also understand the "no consequences" thing. Honestly, a lot of the time there feels like there are none. After every world-shattering event, the system reverts back to 90%+ the status quo what it was. There are no positive consequences or negative consequences other than a couple weeks of RP fall out, if that.

Now I've seen IC actions be IC consequences for players and guilds at times, at least with other players and guilds. How long that has lasted has been rather variable. I've also seen OOC drama have IC consequences for players and guilds at times. But, a lot of the time after a huge arc, it really often feels that nothing has changed, nothing has been done, on the evil or good side, positive or negative. And given how hard it is at times for evil to get a "positive" result, and then there really to be nothing updating from that, I imagine is very disheartening.

But again, I can't really think of a solution because really, I can't think of a reason for Evil and Good to work coherently together for any length of time, or often. Usually when it does, it feels forced. I mean, you could have "Good guy" events and "Bad guy" events that don't necessarily effect each others' stuff, but then that separates things even more.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

All I know is that EVERY TIME I have reached out to “team evil” to try to work together on a story. I get “left on read”. So I dunno what they want unless it just them an DMs off in a corner doing things. Away from everyone else.

I offered to have my good guy taken POW aim this war. Since I feel a lot of it seems to be just Combat RP. Figured someone would like to have a prisoner. Try to RP a prisoner exchange something what ever. But

At this time I am more inclined to believe they just wanna cry about the situation instead of actively change the state of RP. So que sera.. sera…

To be fair, the lack of a lot of consequence options, and the rule enforcement of release changes the context of this.

[Tekill]

All I know is that EVERY TIME I have reached out to “team evil” to try to work together on a story. I get “left on read”. So I dunno what they want unless it just them an DMs off in a corner doing things. Away from everyone else.

I offered to have my good guy taken POW aim this war. Since I feel a lot of it seems to be just Combat RP. Figured someone would like to have a prisoner. Try to RP a prisoner exchange something what ever. But

At this time I am more inclined to believe they just wanna cry about the situation instead of actively change the state of RP. So que sera.. sera…

I am sorry to hear you have been so soundly rejected by "team evil", EVERY TIME. I can see how it could even give you a bad attitude.

But you do bring up an interesting point regarding changing the state of RP.
One thing I do not have very much interest in, is having characters 'pretend' to do things. Like pretending to be captured and pretending to be a POW.
It's fake, and the idea of play acting is really weird to me. I would never want you to 'let me' catch you.

In fact the mechanics of this game does allow for me to actually and legit capture you. You see the game does this neat thing where it simulates combat. So we do not actually have to pretend at all. I could actaully try to capture you if we are so inclined.
But if you want to talk about people crying, then all you have to do actually play the game as it was intended and try to capture another player for real.

[Tekill]

Sry - double post.