Stormsinger and Dissonant Chord

[AgentOrange]

These two PrCs have been around for a long time. It's been an issue that taking these PrCs prevents number of songs from progressing in the epics, leaving the bard with 20 songs to use, 24 with Extra Music.

Both PrCs state on the wiki and in the IG class selection that they progress songs per day, and I can confirm that they do pre-epics. However, by virtue of merely dipping into the PrCs, song progression just stops at 20.

Any ETA on the fix?

[Bobthehero]

And if it's a blackboxed issue. Is it possible to bypass it by having those two classes grant abilities similar to songs, up to match the amount of songs they would give normally, as a work around?

[Endelyon]

These two PrCs have been around for a long time. It's been an issue that taking these PrCs prevents number of songs from progressing in the epics, leaving the bard with 20 songs to use, 24 with Extra Music.

Both PrCs state on the wiki and in the IG class selection that they progress songs per day, and I can confirm that they do pre-epics. However, by virtue of merely dipping into the PrCs, song progression just stops at 20.

Any ETA on the fix?

No way I know of that it can be fixed sadly, so the ETA is never. Valefort and I tried and failed to fix it in a few different ways and ended up just compensating the bard with a free extra music feat in epic levels (I believe it's granted for free at level 23 or higher with at least 4 levels between Stormsinger and Dissonant Chord, though I don't see anywhere this is actually documented I assure you it's the case).

And if it's a blackboxed issue. Is it possible to bypass it by having those two classes grant abilities similar to songs, up to match the amount of songs they would give normally, as a work around?

If "abilities similar to songs" means a carbon copy of every song that draws from a separate pool of 5 or 10 uses then I suppose in theory this would be possible if the songs aren't hardcoded (which at least a couple of them are). There may be some hacky workarounds like this but the QoL would be low and it would be a lot of work, so it's more likely that this is just a limitation we'll be forced to live with.

[Steve]

Perhaps like with Ki Step, an X number of Bard Songs could be refunded by non-use, depending on number of levels of the PrCs in question.

Or, perhaps additional Extra Bard Music feats (I-IV) could be added, that are given at Dissonent Chord lvl 5 and/or Stormsinger 10 (but also have the requirement of X basic Bard levels, like Bard 15 and/or 20 (so that a build of Bard 15 / DC 5 / StSin 10 could get up to 30 songs per day) but ALWAYS with a max of 30.

I don’t have any idea if possible, but considering what I’ve seen done in on BGTSCC creatively with Feats, I’m just trying to put 2 and 2 together.

[AgentOrange]

These two PrCs have been around for a long time. It's been an issue that taking these PrCs prevents number of songs from progressing in the epics, leaving the bard with 20 songs to use, 24 with Extra Music.

Both PrCs state on the wiki and in the IG class selection that they progress songs per day, and I can confirm that they do pre-epics. However, by virtue of merely dipping into the PrCs, song progression just stops at 20.

Any ETA on the fix?

No way I know of that it can be fixed sadly, so the ETA is never. Valefort and I tried and failed to fix it in a few different ways and ended up just compensating the bard with a free extra music feat in epic levels (I believe it's granted for free at level 23 or higher with at least 4 levels between Stormsinger and Dissonant Chord, though I don't see anywhere this is actually documented I assure you it's the case).

And if it's a blackboxed issue. Is it possible to bypass it by having those two classes grant abilities similar to songs, up to match the amount of songs they would give normally, as a work around?

If "abilities similar to songs" means a carbon copy of every song that draws from a separate pool of 5 or 10 uses then I suppose in theory this would be possible if the songs aren't hardcoded (which at least a couple of them are). There may be some hacky workarounds like this but the QoL would be low and it would be a lot of work, so it's more likely that this is just a limitation we'll be forced to live with.

What he means is that the stormsongs can be not coded as "songs", but as abilities that pull from a resource pool with 10 charges. Some abilities use one charge, some use more. It limits how the stormsinger bard allocates the songs, but it would still allow 24 uses of bardsong with the Extra Music feat, and 10 uses of stormsongs. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a lot better than being robbed of 10 song uses since it ought to be 34 with Extra Music.

Also, none of the information about the Extra Music grandfathering, or even the existence of this bug, is published anywhere in BG's information material. Both the wiki and the in-game class description say that the PrCs progress bardic music, which is simply untrue after one reaches the epics. Of course, nobody is going to know that. I'm sure it's an oversight, but the class descriptions are quite misleading.

[AgentOrange]

Perhaps like with Ki Step, an X number of Bard Songs could be refunded by non-use, depending on number of levels of the PrCs in question.

Or, perhaps additional Extra Bard Music feats (I-IV) could be added, that are given at Dissonent Chord lvl 5 and/or Stormsinger 10 (but also have the requirement of X basic Bard levels, like Bard 15 and/or 20 (so that a build of Bard 15 / DC 5 / StSin 10 could get up to 30 songs per day) but ALWAYS with a max of 30.

I don’t have any idea if possible, but considering what I’ve seen done in on BGTSCC creatively with Feats, I’m just trying to put 2 and 2 together.

Making Extra Music stack, and giving it to bard PrC-users who qualify would let them reach 32 song uses, which is much better than 24. This is also an option.

[Endelyon]

Also, none of the information about the Extra Music grandfathering, or even the existence of this bug, is published anywhere in BG's information material. Both the wiki and the in-game class description say that the PrCs progress bardic music, which is simply untrue after one reaches the epics. Of course, nobody is going to know that. I'm sure it's an oversight, but the class descriptions are quite misleading.

Those descriptions were written by Kaedrin over 10 years ago and I'm sure he thought it worked when he wrote them. It should probably be updated though yeah.

[AgentOrange]

Also, none of the information about the Extra Music grandfathering, or even the existence of this bug, is published anywhere in BG's information material. Both the wiki and the in-game class description say that the PrCs progress bardic music, which is simply untrue after one reaches the epics. Of course, nobody is going to know that. I'm sure it's an oversight, but the class descriptions are quite misleading.

Those descriptions were written by Kaedrin over 10 years ago and I'm sure he thought it worked when he wrote them. It should probably be updated though yeah.

Thank you.

[Endelyon]

I've turfed it over to the other devs to see if anyone can come up with a clever solution so maybe someone will think of a way to implement something. In the mean time we'll at least get the class description updated to indicate the problem.

[AgentOrange]

I've turfed it over to the other devs to see if anyone can come up with a clever solution so maybe someone will think of a way to implement something. In the mean time we'll at least get the class description updated to indicate the problem.

Thank you for asking the devs to take another look at it.

For now I've managed to poke people who are pretty creative with building, and cook up a build that keeps the stormsinger theme but is unaffected by the bug: 4 bard/6 sorcerer/10 stormsinger to progress sorc CL/10 frostmage (or replace with ASoC if you prefer). I'm enjoying more than I thought I would even if it's not the best sorc build out there. Pretty decent blasting potential.

Heh, I just realized Bob's proposed fix would kibosh my own build, and probably some others.