Possible bug, or npc spot skill 48+

[Flatted Fifth]

I keep getting attacked by archers, mages, and teleporting spiders in the Vault of the Dead and Durlag's Tower, and various rock throwing giant-kin in the foothills and troll claws, but my hide skill is 68 and move silent 61 (though they really shouldn't be hearing me from a distance).

Did you, sometime in the year or so I was absent, re-work monster attack scripts to make ranged monsters start shooting from further away and make an error in accounting for PC stealth, or do ranged monsters now typically have a spot skill of 48 and roll natural 20s a lot? A lvl 30 skeleton archer with 33 spot and +11 in spot gear and wisdom of 20? That seems a little bit unlikely. And then in order to see me it would have to roll a natural 20 to score a 69 on spot while I roll a natural 1 to score a 69 on hide. If it were drow clerics with a lvl of ranger and able learner feat (or clerics who had taken the spot class skill feat) spotting me I would be like, "yeah, ok, that makes sense", but skeletons and ettin and hill giants? And it's happening consistently.

It's pretty much only monsters with some kind of ranged attack or ranged spells, that's why I ask. Also because it never happened before I took a break from nwn and my character's hide and ms was lower back then.

Hidden: show

[JustAnotherGuy]

And then in order to see me it would have to roll a natural 20 to score a 69 on spot while I roll a natural 1 to score a 69 on hide.

I don't know the skills of the mobs in question, and so I cannot speak to the answer there. But I can speak to this sentence. Spot v Hide is not an opposed roll, as in, both players don't get a roll. The one who is hiding sets the DC by their hide. The spotter rolls a d20 and adds their spot skill. So if your hide is 68, that's all you get when you hide. Not a 68+d20.

The spotter also gets more than one roll. I've heard a few different things, but depending on class/race, it can get up to as many as 1 roll per second. But at the minimum, 1 roll per round.

[izzul]

Last i tested sneaker was like 5-6 years ago in Vault.
normally will first run with at least 65-75
then add a bit more towards 75-85

i find the sweet spot there is around 70-80 but some still need 80++
some mini boss still can see you with 80++ unless you are a fully dedicated sneaker

from CR point, its CR27-30, so expect heavy investment to not get spotted

[Snarfy]

61 hide/move silent is nowhere near enough for VoD. You need to be pushing close to 90 to reliably remain undetected there.

For Durlags tower you need over 80/80 to avoid the spiders detecting you... and even then, 1 out of 5 will still see you. In the lowest levels of Durlags don't even bother, again you need to have 90'ish to avoid the invisible stalkers.

[Snarfy]

The spotter also gets more than one roll. I've heard a few different things, but depending on class/race, it can get up to as many as 1 roll per second. But at the minimum, 1 roll per round.

Without keen senses(aka not elves) you get one d20 roll when you click search that remains fixed until you "search" again. With keen senses you roll d20 detection every few (???... I forget) rounds or so.

[Flatted Fifth]

Having literally every hide and ms items in stores isn't heavy investment enough? Can i see an equipment list for 90 hide and ms?

If it's not possible for a pc to have 80 spot, how is that possible for an npc?

And why was i spotted by an ettin and a hill giant? That's normal? Find it suspicious that it's literally only happening with ranged attackers

[Snarfy]

Having literally every hide and ms items in stores isn't heavy investment enough? Can i see an equipment list for 90 hide and ms?

If it's not possible for a pc to have 80 spot, how is that possible for an npc?

And why was i spotted by an ettin and a hill giant? That's normal? Find it suspicious that it's literally only happening with ranged attackers

Welcome to the wonderful world of trying to play a sneak.

It's ridiculously easy to manage 80 spot, especially if you're a ranger or druid(and retain AC while you're at it). My ranger has upper 70's after buffs and before rolls(add keen senses, which rolls d20 continuously). So, yeah, rolling 90 spot happens fairly regularly.

As for hide/MS gear, become a millionaire and buy every piece on the epic vendor, you will be mid 80's easy. Add greater heroism, camo/mass camo, etc to breach 90 hide/MS. Too bad your AC will be in the toilet, but hey... at least HiPS is OP!

Needless to say, the disparity between dedicated spotters and dedicated sneaks isn't even close, but that's how it's been for a long while. As for dungeons, eventually you'll learn which ones to simply avoid, unless you enjoy the fugue. Once upon a time EVERYTHING in Durlags would spot you, due to a script that debuffed hide and MS. It's much better now, trust me. Except for the lower levels, which are utterly horrific once an invis stalker locks on to you.

[JustAnotherGuy]

If it's not possible for a pc to have 80 spot, how is that possible for an npc?

My druid used to have 90 spot. When I rebuilt him, I lowered it to 82. It's not easy to get it that high, but it's not overly hard either.

[Flatted Fifth]

61 hide/move silent is nowhere near enough for VoD. You need to be pushing close to 90 to reliably remain undetected there.

For Durlags tower you need over 80/80 to avoid the spiders detecting you... and even then, 1 out of 5 will still see you. In the lowest levels of Durlags don't even bother, again you need to have 90'ish to avoid the invisible stalkers.

Code: Select all

source		hide	ms

base		33	33
dex 34		12	12
stealthy	2	2
skill focus	3	3
amulet		3	3
bracer		3	3
robes		4	4
cloak		4	4
boots		4	3
weapon x2	6	6
greater heroism	4	4

total 		78	77

Unless you're also a bard, I don't see how pushing close to 90 hide and ms is even possible. What did I miss?

[Flatted Fifth]

Having literally every hide and ms items in stores isn't heavy investment enough? Can i see an equipment list for 90 hide and ms?

If it's not possible for a pc to have 80 spot, how is that possible for an npc?

And why was i spotted by an ettin and a hill giant? That's normal? Find it suspicious that it's literally only happening with ranged attackers

Welcome to the wonderful world of trying to play a sneak.

It's ridiculously easy to manage 80 spot, especially if you're a ranger or druid(and retain AC while you're at it). My ranger has upper 70's after buffs and before rolls(add keen senses, which rolls d20 continuously). So, yeah, rolling 90 spot happens fairly regularly.

As for hide/MS gear, become a millionaire and buy every piece on the epic vendor, you will be mid 80's easy. Add greater heroism, camo/mass camo, etc to breach 90 hide/MS. Too bad your AC will be in the toilet, but hey... at least HiPS is OP!

Needless to say, the disparity between dedicated spotters and dedicated sneaks isn't even close, but that's how it's been for a long while. As for dungeons, eventually you'll learn which ones to simply avoid, unless you enjoy the fugue. Once upon a time EVERYTHING in Durlags would spot you, due to a script that debuffed hide and MS. It's much better now, trust me. Except for the lower levels, which are utterly horrific once an invis stalker locks on to you.

So, the skeleton archers, skeleton mages, ettins, phase spiders, and hill giants are all high level ranger/druids? That doesn't seem sus to anyone but me?


If areas are built to make things mechanically difficult for specific types instead of based on plausibility and storytelling, is that right?

[selhan]

Quite a few things missing lol..

[Tanlaus]

61 hide/move silent is nowhere near enough for VoD. You need to be pushing close to 90 to reliably remain undetected there.

For Durlags tower you need over 80/80 to avoid the spiders detecting you... and even then, 1 out of 5 will still see you. In the lowest levels of Durlags don't even bother, again you need to have 90'ish to avoid the invisible stalkers.

Code: Select all

source		hide	ms

base		33	33
dex 34		12	12
stealthy	2	2
skill focus	3	3
amulet		3	3
bracer		3	3
robes		4	4
cloak		4	4
boots		4	3
weapon x2	6	6
greater heroism	4	4

total 		78	77

Unless you're also a bard, I don't see how pushing close to 90 hide and ms is even possible. What did I miss?

Can add more with rings, either +2 to both with assassin’s finger/natures vigil or +6 to hide with ring of hiding.

Then +6 to each if you dual greater stealth short swords or daggers.

+4 for spider skin
+10 with a mass camo wand

And +3 to each with the akromatic belt. Or +2 with any of the other rouge belts.

[Flatted Fifth]

Thank you. Bear in mind that 34 base dex is only possible with all 5 epic feats going to great dex. No armor skin, no expose weakness, no epic prowess. Something very few people would want to play and having every scrap of skill and feat and equipment dedicated to just one thing is not something required of any other build. Still, thank you for pointing out gear I wasn't aware of.

Point stands, though: WHY would skeletons and ettins have such high spot?

Why would 60ish hide and ms be fine against Drow Priestesses in Ogranns, creatures known for both high wisdom and the keen senses feat, but not for skeletons and ettins and hill giants? Creatures not known for their great eyesight or high awareness.

When no attention is paid to plausibility, immersion suffers. It reminds the player that they're facing a mechanical obstacle instead of an RP experience. Skeletons and ettins and hill giants are pretty well known for being thick as bricks, and the latter are typically barbarians while the former do not typically retain the skills they had in life, so when suddenly they have spot skills that would require a heavy investment in wisdom score and access to a class that has it as a class skill plus equipment to boost it, then it makes me stop feeling like I'm facing monsters and start feeling like I'm facing a DM.

Yes, absolutely there should be monsters that it's very, very hard to sneak against, but they should be ones that it would make sense that they would be hard to sneak against.

[EasternCheesE]

Not really a bug, but a thing to consider for PvE rebalance. Moving to suggestions,