Thoughts On: Traps, Glyphs, and revising Impartial Weaponry

[Kitunenotsume]

The following commit was made about a week ago, in what I understand was response to player action.

Revision: 1137
Author: Rhifox

Message: Traps set by players should no longer trigger unless the two characters are hostile with each other. If a PC is killed by a trap, it is treated as a pvp death if the trap was set by a player, rather than a pve death.

This commit has 2 parts, which I will address separately:

1. Traps are no-longer impartial weapons.
2. Traps are now considered Player-Weapons.

Starting with #2, this is a reasonable change. By properly considering traps set by players as player-weapons, it enables their use and RP even in circumstances when the target is disabled as a result, rather than apparently arbitrary death to the receiving party. There is the OOC signal that by being disabled instead of dead that there is CvC involved, but the benefits and accountability far outweigh any potential detriments.

However, #1 seems to me to be heavy-handed. A trap by nature is impartial unless someone is informed in its existence, placement, and bypass. The purpose of such tools are to function as a form of area denial to unknown parties, discourage trespass, and counter-play with espionage. By changing traps to only function on hostile targets, the use of such tools either requires the user of an immobile weapon to mark as hostile all possible targets to maintain functionality, or trust in any aggressor to toggle hostile sufficiently prior such that the traps are not just walked over (intentionally or unintentionally).
Meanwhile, I do understand the concerns regarding "UXO" and griefing, particularly when those affected are spatially and temporally distant from the perpetrator. The current system does nothing to prevent the abuse of such mechanics by 'bad actors' or ignorant use.

While considering this, I was reminded of a pair of spells that provide the same function, without monetary or skill-rank costs: Glyph of Warding and Greater Glyph of Warding.
Both spells create magical traps, are impartial, and were not explicitly mentioned in any commits so I presume they are untouched. I had considered posting a suggestion to correct them to P&P duration and damage types, but in light of Rev.1137 identified that they could pose a moderate solution without the full implications of discriminating traps.
In P&P, Glyph of Warding (and Greater Glyph) are "Permanent until discharged", and have a selection of basic elemental damage types for the Blast Glyph.
In NWN2, Glyph of Warding (and Greater Glyph) are "1 minute per 2 CL", and have fixed damage-type based on caster alignment. The disparity of damage types clearly favors Good characters, given the immunity available to Sonic and Negative energy compared to straight Divine damage.


It is in my opinion that homogenizing mechanics between mundane skill-based traps and magical traps would be a worthwhile task, and that Rev.1137 moves them further apart. With this in mind, I posit the following set of changes for consideration:

1. Retain the ability for traps to damage any non-party members.
2. Enforce a duration on all traps (mundane and magical) of 1 minute per [(2 ranks Set-Trap)or (2 CL)] respectively.
3. Add a check to ground-trap placement on minimum distance between traps and other traps or transitions.
4. Remove the giant glowing rune from (Greater)Glyph of Warding.
5. Instead of a ground-spell-effect, have (Greater)Glyph of Warding spawn an elemental trap (Chosen by radial).
6. Add Explosive Runes as an arcane option, with similar functionality. (other considerations: Spike Stones/Growth, etc.)
7. Add a check to AoE Dispels to attempt to remove/disable Magical traps.

My reasonings:

1 & 2) By implementing a time limit already used for other traps (instead of removing the valid triggers) maintains existing function, but limits the risk of a trap of either variety lingering an unreasonable duration. Expected duration would be ~15 minutes, up to 30 with trap-focused builds or Extend Spell, down from "until reset". This would limit collateral risks without impacting short-term function.

3) Layering ground traps is considered exploitive already, as is placing them close to transitions. Center-to-center distance between traps of ~70% of the trap width would allow for coverage without an outside party tripping more than 2 at once. Transition-to-trap distance of at least 30-feet would give space for a party to load in comfortably. Denying ground placement within these distances would be reasonable. This wouldn't affect on-target traps, which already cannot be stacked and rely on target interaction (rather than just position).

4 & 5) "When the spell is completed, the glyph and tracery become nearly invisible." "Note: Magic traps such as glyph of warding are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level." Making them actual traps makes them Disable-able, and would permit more varied scripts (like spell-traps). Changing the spell to selected elemental effects could permit leveraging existing trap-types (with some tag adjustments to prevent item duping and allow other interactions), while removing the entirely unreasonable alignment favoritism native to the NWN2 version of the spell.

6) Glyph of Warding is a Cleric spell, but far from the only Magical Trap spell in P&P. More options from other spell lists would introduce parity without greatly increasing complexity - particularly if they all followed similar implementation and use.

7) From Explosive Runes: "Another creature can remove them with a successful dispel magic or erase spell, but attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion." By P&P this is only for Explosive Runes, and other magical traps are considered "ongoing Magical Effects" for the purposes of dispel, but using a single treatment would provide further utility and consistent counter-play with Dispel Magic.


Addendum:
Recent interactions have reminded me that my own suggested duration here would actually run counter to how I currently use traps - namely, personal security while possessing other characters. However, I suspect this is a niche case (though practical), and does not take away from the validity of the suggestion outlined above.
An alteration could be considered to use two 'triggers', both time limit and area proximity. When the trapper has left the area, and the time is past, the trap could be removed. This would also increase the viability of such things for events (as they are likely to take longer than 15 minutes) or other circumstances where the trapper is actively attentive to the traps, while providing a hard limit for how long they can be left unattended. Alternatively, a fixed "15 minutes unattended or until map is left" would be a nice hard and consistent rule, rather than variable duration based on skill or CL.

I am aware that I tend to make giant walls of text, but hopefully the reasoning and provided suggestion works to open up constructive conversation.
I continue to invite and appreciate any comments, concerns, and perspectives.
Cheers,
Kit

[Kitunenotsume]

While further reviewing various things, I would like to extend this suggestion to a counterplay option:
The spell [Find the Path] has the following text:

The spell enables the subject to sense the correct direction that will eventually lead it to its destination, indicating at appropriate times the exact path to follow or physical actions to take. For example, the spell enables the subject to sense trip wires or the proper word to bypass a glyph of warding.

This could be interpreted mechanically as Immunity to Traps - IE you don't set them off, nor suffer effect, because you have been informed by the spell how to bypass them.

[EasternCheesE]

While further reviewing various things, I would like to extend this suggestion to a counterplay option:
The spell [Find the Path] has the following text:

The spell enables the subject to sense the correct direction that will eventually lead it to its destination, indicating at appropriate times the exact path to follow or physical actions to take. For example, the spell enables the subject to sense trip wires or the proper word to bypass a glyph of warding.

This could be interpreted mechanically as Immunity to Traps - IE you don't set them off, nor suffer effect, because you have been informed by the spell how to bypass them.

Sounds super neat, but i doubt we can implement it mechanically.

[Kitunenotsume]

While further reviewing various things, I would like to extend this suggestion to a counterplay option:
The spell [Find the Path] has the following text:

The spell enables the subject to sense the correct direction that will eventually lead it to its destination, indicating at appropriate times the exact path to follow or physical actions to take. For example, the spell enables the subject to sense trip wires or the proper word to bypass a glyph of warding.

This could be interpreted mechanically as Immunity to Traps - IE you don't set them off, nor suffer effect, because you have been informed by the spell how to bypass them.

Sounds super neat, but i doubt we can implement it mechanically.

IMMUNITY_TYPE_TRAP (5) is a status effect that could be granted while linked to the existing Search bonus.
It is currently applied both to Scrying Sensors, and Gaseous Form, and works - best as I have been able to test it.

[Antimeta]

Just wow...I didnt even catch that section about the change. There goes a big part in Rogue rp....Rip rogues Rp . The way a lot of these changes are going things are becoming quite disappointing to even bother trying.

[Kitunenotsume]

Per the update, the change implemented in the OP is now live.

* Traps set by players should no longer trigger unless the two characters are hostile with each other. If a PC is killed by a trap, it is treated as a pvp death if the trap was set by a player, rather than a pve death.

As noted in the initial post I listed above, half of this change (the hostility requirement), renders any defensive utility of traps inoperable. While the change was mentioned at the time to be in reaction to purported and unpublished abuses by certain players, the implementation prevents legitimate use. The intention of traps as a defensive measure against unknown hostiles has been removed, and the only remaining purpose is offensive use against mobs and PCs that have been antagonized by the player.

I am bumping this post as a result, to reitorate my concerns and provide alternate suggestions rather than bar legitimate functionality (As the opportunity to prevent its removal has passed).

I can't agree at the time limit for traps since they would become practically useless for PVE leveling. In the underdark I've set traps around the entire Kro when there was no-one around and it simply helped me to basically not die when I was low level and no hips until lvl 20 with my build. I would set a bunch of traps around and move through them to make sure I had safe spots to run to if I was in danger. The time-limit per trap would only make me waste my traps since they would be destroyed.

Regarding your concerns on time-limits, please review the addendum I included to the initial post three days prior to your reply:

Addendum:
Recent interactions have reminded me that my own suggested duration here would actually run counter to how I currently use traps - namely, personal security while possessing other characters. However, I suspect this is a niche case (though practical), and does not take away from the validity of the suggestion outlined above.
An alteration could be considered to use two 'triggers', both time limit and area proximity. When the trapper has left the area, and the time is past, the trap could be removed. This would also increase the viability of such things for events (as they are likely to take longer than 15 minutes) or other circumstances where the trapper is actively attentive to the traps, while providing a hard limit for how long they can be left unattended. Alternatively, a fixed "15 minutes unattended or until map is left" would be a nice hard and consistent rule, rather than variable duration based on skill or CL.

This addendum suggests going with the later of 2 triggers: Leaving the map, and 15 minutes having passed since set. If both are met and the trap still exists, it gets removed - but would last at most 15 minutes if you leave the area, or indefinitely as long as the trapper remains on the same map and does not depart but disappears if you do.