Hunter Trap DCs

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Looks like, a pure hunter(ranger) would get a DC of 10+6 (for levels) and then.... not sure. Is it limited to base ranks, and thus, 33 would equite to another +6? For a total of 22?

Even if it is not limited to base ranks, a craft trap skill of 60 would yield 10+6+12 for a DC of 28. Major investment as the craft trap items are limited to the 'of the trapper' or similar gear.

Is it possible to generate discussion on a lower threshold of reaching around a 30 DC? Either by increasing the ranks granted by levels, or craft trap? And/or could this instead be shifted to set trap which has other synergy?

[Kitunenotsume]

Though there is no formal post on the topic, my understanding is that 'Craft: Trap' and 'Set Trap' will be combined into a single 'Craft: Mechanical' skill with the next update.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Oh, snap

[JustAnotherGuy]

Without doing the math myself, I would be in favor of a DC that essentially rivaled a Wizard's DC with as much investment. However, I also think the damage needs to be balanced accordingly. Assuming 30 ranger levels, 30d6 is quite a bit, imo. And even with a low DC causing frequent saves, you're looking at 15d6, or 52.5 average damage.

Another way to look at it, though, is that 30d6 is a "deadly" trap. Only one trap naturally occurring has a 30d6 damage, and that's a deadly electrical. And it's base reflex save is 28, the highest of all damaging traps. Most deadly traps have around a 24-25 DC.

[Kitunenotsume]

Another way to look at it, though, is that 30d6 is a "deadly" trap. Only one trap naturally occurring has a 30d6 damage, and that's a deadly electrical. And it's base reflex save is 28, the highest of all damaging traps. Most deadly traps have around a 24-25 DC.

Deadly traps are expected for pre-epic content (CR 16-22ish depending on variety). Epic traps deal up to 60d6 (electrical), with DCs up to DC38 (Fire), both affecting multiple characters and permitting Reflex-Half and Evasion (So potentially 360d6 total damage with Epic Electrical).
They also have a Set-Trap DC of 65 (So it is reasonable to expect a dedicated trapper to aim for a 60+ modifier due to potentially-dire fail-by-5 consequence).
Non-epic Trap DCs and Damage were revised and fully listed by Valefort here: viewtopic.php?p=902879#p902879
Note that Epic traps were not adjusted during the balance pass in the thread, but the curve between pre-Epic traps was smoothed.

A 30d6 Hunter trap would be 5d6 more than a Deadly Spike trap (25d6, DC15, Ref-half/Evade-0, single target), making it at full investment equivalent to what a Fatal Spike trap might be.
There does exist an Epic Spike trap, (the Epic Beast Trap available from the merchant in Beregost), but I do not know the damage or DC.

[Tanlaus]

Oh, snap

Hunter Rangers should also get the trap finding feat and disable device skill as a class skill with the next update. This is to address the fact that they cannot disable their own traps, and have a limit to how many can be set. It’s just a crazy design flaw.

Another issue is the fact that setting a trap breaks stealth, though being able to also set rogue traps mitigates this somewhat, and also that hunter traps are visible to everyone all the time. But that is more complicated to resolve mechanically.

I’ve been running a variety of test builds to address a lot of their short comings and bring them more in line with regular rangers (without doing anything to make them OP). If you’re a long time hunter player I’d like to hear what other issues you might have run into, mechanical or balance related.

With the caveat of course that I can only make recommendations to admin and devs. So I make no promises any more fixes will be incoming.

[mrm3ntalist]

I’ve been running a variety of test builds to address a lot of their short comings and bring them more in line with regular rangers (without doing anything to make them OP). If you’re a long time hunter player I’d like to hear what other issues you might have run into, mechanical or balance related

Shortcomings? Daaamn. What are their "shortcoming" exactly? There are hunter builds that are more powerful than rangers ( especially archery builds ) while at the same time there are other builds that favor rangers ( with no hunter kit ). That is perfectly fine.

I guess though you are already buffing up rangers ( perma speed increase - Primal speed) for absolutely no reason, so i guess some like to always chase their tail

[Tanlaus]

I’ve been running a variety of test builds to address a lot of their short comings and bring them more in line with regular rangers (without doing anything to make them OP). If you’re a long time hunter player I’d like to hear what other issues you might have run into, mechanical or balance related

Shortcomings? Daaamn. What are their "shortcoming" exactly? There are hunter builds that are more powerful than rangers ( especially archery builds ) while at the same time there are other builds that favor rangers ( with no hunter kit ). That is perfectly fine.

I guess though you are already buffing up rangers ( perma speed increase - Primal speed) for absolutely no reason, so i guess some like to always chase their tail

I’m not so concerned about trying to make them perfectly match rangers, or even make them more powerful. Just… I’ve been running a lot of tests on a lot of different builds and I’m wondering if I missed some mechanical flaw that others might have picked up on.

Like for me, having a limited number of traps that can be set at once, and no way to disarm them when they don’t end up being triggered is a flaw. Happens a lot when you’re with a group and having to find an NPC to lure over the trap is both odd and tedious.

Also having them completely visible is a flaw. I set one in a DM event and the DM controlled NPC just rand around it, despite (I’m pretty sure because of the class) having little to no search ability.

Neither of these are game breaking issues but I would file them under flawed mechanics.

I’m not super worried about DCs at the moment because the PVE rework might put them in a pretty good spot once it’s done.

[Kitunenotsume]

Like for me, having a limited number of traps that can be set at once, and no way to disarm them when they don’t end up being triggered is a flaw. Happens a lot when you’re with a group and having to find an NPC to lure over the trap is both odd and tedious.

Worth noting that the maximum trap limit is not a prevention of placing more. In the event placing a new trap would result in the Hunter having more traps than they can support, the oldest is removed from the world. That way, the newest placed is alwas going to place where and when it is attempted, but it is not clear what order the traps will disappear in - particularly if some have tripped.

[Tanlaus]

Like for me, having a limited number of traps that can be set at once, and no way to disarm them when they don’t end up being triggered is a flaw. Happens a lot when you’re with a group and having to find an NPC to lure over the trap is both odd and tedious.

Worth noting that the maximum trap limit is not a prevention of placing more. In the event placing a new trap would result in the Hunter having more traps than they can support, the oldest is removed from the world. That way, the newest placed is alwas going to place where and when it is attempted, but it is not clear what order the traps will disappear in - particularly if some have tripped.

Interesting. I would get the message that I could not set any more traps when I tried it.

[Kitunenotsume]

Clearly more science is required. Awaits patiently, looking at the copiously down server.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Will take another look at this topic with updates after the dust settles from all the new awesomeness.