Someone must love the Phantom class...

[mrm3ntalist]

So...
- +1AC every 5 levels
- 50% concealment, on top of epic dodge and hips ( multiclass or even the new hide mechanics )
- enormous bonus on skills (tumble) which is now used in new combat mechanics
- More Ki Dodge uses because... reasons

Ye..., someone must REALLY love their phantoms

[Rhifox]

I made the changes. I don't play one, never have, and don't plan to.

They were made because those are their pnp mechanics, and most comments I ever hear about Phantom have been about how little reason there is to take it. So, now there's a bit more.

[Tanlaus]

So...
- +1AC every 5 levels
- 50% concealment, on top of epic dodge and hips ( multiclass or even the new hide mechanics )
- enormous bonus on skills (tumble) which is now used in new combat mechanics
- More Ki Dodge uses because... reasons

Ye..., someone must REALLY love their phantoms

Your assumption is that phantom got buffed because someone likes it. When actually it hit in-nerfed because no one likes it.

Yes there are a few phantom players- not among staff AFAIK- but it has been lacking compared to rogue for a number of reasons.

[mrm3ntalist]

Yes there are a few phantom players- not among staff AFAIK- but it has been lacking compared to rogue for a number of reasons.

"Because of reasons..."

Here are a couple of reasons compared to rogue for a traditional Phantom25/SD5
+5AC from +1AC for every 5ranks of phantom
+ Wisdom to AC
+ 50% concealment

I wont discuss how the bonus on skills (+8) will affect the build since i havent tried the new mechanics. How is the rogue class better? You get Fighters AC (50+) with no consumables/UMD, Free 50% concealment, similar damage as a rogue (13d6). Combat wise, the phantom became so much better than rogue atm

[Tanlaus]

50% concealment when you blow a ki power, which are limited. Ghost Step sets you up for sneak attacks and is only not better to use if you’re tanking, which is not the greatest role for a phantom.

Even if you multi class with 8 or 9 assassin it 5 SD for HiPS ghost step still gets you out of trouble better when your hide timer is not up.

Pure rogue now has assess to HiPS without multiclassing. Add in its bonus feats for IMA and you can still get epic dodge, expose weakness and 16+ sneak dice.

You also lose an AB and AC with 5 SD.

Rogues, along with their bonus feats, have more skill points and UMD.

Rogues have blinding strike.

Rogues are far and away more favored in the server for a reason. Not that these changes will or need to tip the scales in the other direction.

So… the added conceal is okay but hardly worth giving up a ghost step for. The added AC is nice. Any well played HiPSter isn’t going to need it so much but it is a much needed bump to an otherwise underpowered class.

Your concerns are misplaced.

But go ahead and make one to own all the server content if your so convinced. No one is stopping you.

[selhan]

hmm well lets do go over some minor things ..

Phantom = Greater Ki Dodge 50% concealment ((if true)) +Epic Dodge+ The AC Bonus from all the wisdom mod+ ((Pop a mirror image over that )) +Greater Ki Dodge = Tank! Ghost Sight + Ghost Strike +All that wisdom = Sees the Rogue even if it had assassin spells.

Rogue = Scroll alot? Wand alot? Dispel / Mords bye bye, + Tumble alot maybe? Oh wait yeah...lockpickers lol thats right..owns chest and trap alot !

just sayin..not really much to compare there. But thats just my own opinion

[Tanlaus]

hmm well lets do go over some minor things ..

Phantom = Greater Ki Dodge 50% concealment ((if true)) +Epic Dodge+ The AC Bonus from all the wisdom mod+ ((Pop a mirror image over that )) +Greater Ki Dodge = Tank! Ghost Sight + Ghost Strike +All that wisdom = Sees the Rogue even if it had assassin spells.

Rogue = Scroll alot? Wand alot? Dispel / Mords bye bye, + Tumble alot maybe? Oh wait yeah...lockpickers lol thats right..owns chest and trap alot !

just sayin..not really much to compare there. But thats just my own opinion

I mean, is a phantom with cross class umd can pop mirror image then a rouge with one cab just as easily pop displacement and mirror image.

Ghost strike is all but useless.

“All that wisdom” unless you’re popping OI elixirs (which is it’s own issue) isn’t that much if you still want dex/int/ and presumably aren’t completely dumping strength and con.

Could dump charisma but not if you want to feint, which is the only way using that greater ki dodge makes any sense.

[mrm3ntalist]

50% concealment when you blow a ki power, which are limited. Ghost Step sets you up for sneak attacks and is only not better to use if you’re tanking, which is not the greatest role for a phantom.

Even if you multi class with 8 or 9 assassin it 5 SD for HiPS ghost step still gets you out of trouble better when your hide timer is not up.

Pure rogue now has assess to HiPS without multiclassing. Add in its bonus feats for IMA and you can still get epic dodge, expose weakness and 16+ sneak dice.

You also lose an AB and AC with 5 SD.

Rogues, along with their bonus feats, have more skill points and UMD.

Rogues have blinding strike.

Rogues are far and away more favored in the server for a reason. Not that these changes will or need to tip the scales in the other direction.

So… the added conceal is okay but hardly worth giving up a ghost step for. The added AC is nice. Any well played HiPSter isn’t going to need it so much but it is a much needed bump to an otherwise underpowered class.

Your concerns are misplaced.

But go ahead and make one to own all the server content if your so convinced. No one is stopping you.

Mate, are you planning to fight goblins?(sic) If not why do you mention Blinding strike? I hope you know the saves that epic bosses have. No matter how you try to spin it, you just gave a class +3AC and 50%concealment ( instant ) because people SAY the class is not good.

Finally, my post has nothing to do with concern. It is the inevitable nerf that will come in the near future once you realize how powerful the class became, as has happened in the past. I am certain you will enjoy very much seeing phantoms running around with 60+ AC.

[Hawke]

Ok, I get that some folks are passionate about their work and loves. But please, keep it under control as having valuable input on the class changes is important to discuss.

[Tanlaus]

50% concealment when you blow a ki power, which are limited. Ghost Step sets you up for sneak attacks and is only not better to use if you’re tanking, which is not the greatest role for a phantom.

Even if you multi class with 8 or 9 assassin it 5 SD for HiPS ghost step still gets you out of trouble better when your hide timer is not up.

Pure rogue now has assess to HiPS without multiclassing. Add in its bonus feats for IMA and you can still get epic dodge, expose weakness and 16+ sneak dice.

You also lose an AB and AC with 5 SD.

Rogues, along with their bonus feats, have more skill points and UMD.

Rogues have blinding strike.

Rogues are far and away more favored in the server for a reason. Not that these changes will or need to tip the scales in the other direction.

So… the added conceal is okay but hardly worth giving up a ghost step for. The added AC is nice. Any well played HiPSter isn’t going to need it so much but it is a much needed bump to an otherwise underpowered class.

Your concerns are misplaced.

But go ahead and make one to own all the server content if your so convinced. No one is stopping you.

Mate, are you planning to fight goblins?(sic) If not why do you mention Blinding strike? I hope you know the saves that epic bosses have. No matter how you try to spin it, you just gave a class +3AC and 50%concealment ( instant ) because people SAY the class is not good.

Finally, my post has nothing to do with concern. It is the inevitable nerf that will come in the near future once you realize how powerful the class became, as has happened in the past. I am certain you will enjoy very much seeing phantoms running around with 60+ AC.

I believe your assessment is incorrect, but Hawke is right in that this shouldn’t devolve into a mindless back and forth. If it becomes a balance issue it will be looked at. I don’t think it will.

[selhan]

I just had put in my own quick opinion that was quite the obvious. I could spend the time and really do the break down with each scenarios to really show the comparison but it would be redundant. Cause like Hawk said, its going to come down "to each their own"s love and affection to what they like which will be a bias favored opinion.

Have I played a Phantom? Nope.
Have I played a pure rogue? Yup with different custom content. Will I play one again even on BG ? Nope.
Have I tired power building, balance with rp, rp build etc ? Yup.
Am I aware of the upcoming nerf thats going to happen? Yup.

pnp rogue all the way. Nwn2 meh thats a subject that can and will be up for much debate. Do I know any pure rogues on this server? Knew a player that did it and wasnt long till he rerolled.

My opinion however was based off what BG has to offer as far as Gear, content, boss and mobs, pvp/pve situations etc. Phantom off the top of my head sounds way more sweet. Like seriously who goes full Rogue and sticks to it here? What now that they got their own Hips? Was that suppose to make things juicy? Meh, in MY opinion, Hips aint nothing but the "OH xxxx" button when it comes down to it. A pro hipster simply knows when to use it.

But just off the top of my head after the passive nerf thats soon to come I can tell you the situational scenario, A phantom build gets to go all in on their target. A rogue gonna be juggling between clicking this or clicking that. Somethings all come down to a matter of but a few seconds. I seen some con dumpin rogues already with HP no bigger than my foot size ((You know who you are! lol)) with the best gear combo the server got's to offer to push their AC into "Work able" mode. Now that is about to get watered down and whats their alternative ? Switch fighting stance? Them few seconds better off evading a hit twice cause now they about to get hit twice. Now far as Tanlaus talking about "the role" folks play in a group..lets not leave out all the other possible ways a person is going to play this old glitchy buggy unpredictable game. A phantom is gonna have his solo moments, a rogue is gonna have their solo moments. And the winner is!! The one that dont set off the epic trap! Sorry got that trollin feelin ^^

[Steve]

I’m very excited to play a Phantom and get all the goodies!

[izzul]

I’m very excited to play a Phantom and get all the goodies!

Then go do it, what are you waiting for? nerf???

[Steve]

I’m very excited to play a Phantom and get all the goodies!

Then go do it, what are you waiting for? nerf???

I thought I was doing everyone a favor by staying away from the Server this weekend, while the Adults fix all the broken shit.