Time of Troubles is kinda cringe

[Kaybrie]

I'd like to add that one of the most commonly viewed vain and petulant goddesses in the Forgotten Realms, Sune; goes full hero mode and finds and rescues Sharess from Shar during the Time of Troubles, at great personal risk. This is while many other deities (like Gond) just decide to hide in their temples among their worshippers and ride out the storm so to speak, which based on her lore and attributed personality would be entirely in character for her.

Mystra's death isn't about her being a woman, it's about her being the deity in charge of magic. If she dies the realms fall into chaos and the 'rules' are allowed to be bent and changed. (2nd to 3rd edition, and again it happens 3rd to 4th) And has an established event happening with Netheril and Mystryl.

These two things more or less put to bed the idea that ToT has misogynistic tones for me.

[selhan]

*Fears the Wall of Faithless*

[cosmic ray]

Mystra transferred herself into Midnight, but Bhaal just remained dead. Of all the main gods, the one that was dealt the worst hand was male. I find this very sexist.

[Rad-Icarus]

Mystra transferred herself into Midnight, but Bhaal just remained dead. Of all the main gods, the one that was dealt the worst hand was male. I find this very sexist.

Oh boy... the male gods also get the most "honorable" outcomes, so your silly troll kinda falls flat.

No really though, Torm is like Jesus being resurrected after his "father" had seemingly forsaken him...Midnight Mystra is more like Dr. Who - except I don't think she even gets to retain the memories like The Doctor, right? Or like a Trill from Star Trek where the slug gets passed down when the humanoid host dies.

If DnD FR Lore offends you for whatever reason then perhaps this just isn't the game for you.

If you can't handle the idea of a critique of the source material...

[Heretic]

If DnD FR Lore offends you for whatever reason then perhaps this just isn't the game for you.

If you can't handle the idea of a critique of the source material...

Your critique amounts to maligning the creators based on no evidence whatsoever beyond your own personal interpretation of the literature. That's my issue. It takes a very narrow view to have walked away with that 'particular' interpretation. Maybe you need to consider what filters you aggregate data through. We've had constructive debates on these forums for years about DnD lore/mechanics without impugning the motives of it's creators.

[River Steel]

Nope. Nope. Nope.
Not touching this one!
Nope!

[cosmic ray]

Mystra transferred herself into Midnight, but Bhaal just remained dead. Of all the main gods, the one that was dealt the worst hand was male. I find this very sexist.

Oh boy... the male gods also get the most "honorable" outcomes, so your silly troll kinda falls flat.

No really though, Torm is like Jesus being resurrected after his "father" had seemingly forsaken him...Midnight Mystra is more like Dr. Who - except I don't think she even gets to retain the memories like The Doctor, right? Or like a Trill from Star Trek where the slug gets passed down when the humanoid host dies.

If DnD FR Lore offends you for whatever reason then perhaps this just isn't the game for you.

If you can't handle the idea of a critique of the source material...

My silly troll as opposed to your totally sensible posts.

If you want, I can let you borrow the Avatar series, which you don't sound at all like you have read. Do you live anywhere in Europe? Postal fees should not be that high. If you are one of those people who can read books online, you can save some money though. Personally, I prefer to hold a sreal book in my hands than to stare at a computer screen for hours. It is also a lot healthier for the brain and it improves retention of information. Very wholesome.

[Rad-Icarus]

If DnD FR Lore offends you for whatever reason then perhaps this just isn't the game for you.

If you can't handle the idea of a critique of the source material...

Your critique amounts to maligning the creators based on no evidence whatsoever beyond your own personal interpretation of the literature. That's my issue. It takes a very narrow view to have walked away with that 'particular' interpretation. Maybe you need to consider what filters you aggregate data through. We've had constructive debates on these forums for years about DnD lore/mechanics without impugning the motives of it's creators.

Critique is not automatically an attack.

I know we live in a world of hyper-reactive fandoms that send death threats to the voice actors in video games that don't adequately espouse their political values, but conversely, can we allow members of a shared online community to deconstruct tropes found in the source material without having to resort to suggesting people leave?

If you don't find this "debate" constructive, that's your right and opinion as much as it's my right and opinion to be critical of source material. As I mentioned earlier, I can't get inside the heads of writers from 20+ years ago and know their true motivations and what influenced them, but I can point out tired tropes relating to how gender roles are portrayed in media.

[River Steel]

Ok. I have to ask.. because.. I just.. don't get it..

WHY is it that... 9/10 times (or more).. the players that take offense to women's armor being too sexy, or the game being too misogynistic, are the male players?? It's a phenomenon I've never figured out.

I'm female, an atheist, and don't take offense to any of this. While I appreciate the consideration for those of my gender, I've personally never taken issue with the lore as it's written nor from the fantasy attire..

IDK. For me the subject's moot.. There's already too much that's politically charged or motivated, debated and discussed in the world. Especially in this day and age..

Sometimes, it's ok for something to not be 100% politically correct, and for it to still simply be enjoyed as it is, without picking it apart, finding its flaws through political or religious views and debating it's politically correct weaknesses, imperfections and shortcomings.. In my humble opinion. It's a game.. Not one more place for political or religious or gender debates...For me?.. It's exactly the place I go to escape such subjects and debates... but again, this is my 'personal' view on the topic and in no way intended to suggest someone else's view is 'less than' just b/c it differs from my own. <3


(( Unrelated Inside joke: ))

[Józef Taktyka]

C'mon, are we really going to have this conversation here? It adds nothing to the server, does not benefit the players RP or gameplay in any way and just causes stir. It's basically pointless. If you want to make a change, contact Wizards of the Coast or something. Let's just play and leave this for the real world.

[River Steel]

C'mon, are we really going to have this conversation here? It adds nothing to the server, does not benefit the players RP or gameplay in any way and just causes stir. It's basically pointless. If you want to make a change, contact Wizards of the Coast or something. Let's just play and leave this for the real world.

[Rad-Icarus]

C'mon, are we really going to have this conversation here? It adds nothing to the server, does not benefit the players RP or gameplay in any way and just causes stir. It's basically pointless. If you want to make a change, contact Wizards of the Coast or something. Let's just play and leave this for the real world.

Another post suggesting we keep our opinions to ourselves lest we upset the status quo.

Not sure why this has caused so much upset, I mean no one thinks this is going to lead to any changes. Examining the media you enjoy can actually be quite interesting if you aren't afraid of having your perceptions challenged from time to time.

I don't think there's anything more to say on this, and no one has really posted a substantive reply in some time. I appreciate the few that did present counter-theories, but it's kind of degenerated into a grievance thread now.

[River Steel]

Another post suggesting we keep our opinions to ourselves lest we upset the status quo.

This portion of your response bothered me.
I think this is a real BIG mischaracterization. I think there's a distinct difference between someone simply wanting to keep real-life stressors and trigger subjects out of their recreational, destressing pastime/hobby .. and someone afraid to 'upset the status quo'. For many of us.. we come and play a game to get away from political and religious debates.. We come to get away from trigger topics .. and real-world concerns.. We can get enough of that on Fox News or CNN... Conflating them takes away from the separation of real life/game world thus diminishing the quality of escape one can find in that game.

[selhan]

1. I like sexy outfits / armors

2. I like cool and kick butt looking outfits / armors.

3. Never ever ever ever bring Religion and Politics to the dinner table. Drama is 100% to take fruit.

4. To my understanding...we come to play on nwn servers because we are fans of Forgotten Realms and like to role play, I mean why else are we here on this old buggy game?

5. Far as ToT is concerned, I myself simply want a character to play through it. I myself feel that to alter the story is wrong, I dont have the rights too, it was someone else's creation. I dont go looking into someones bio background story and tell them Im gonna alter it. However to play in another area and play in a story within it without messing with the original content of the writers I think is cool neat and fun. Again MY opinion. Would it be cool to meet Midnight, Cyric etc? Hell yeah it be cool but I myself dont want too. Cause the story is as the story was. I couldnt go back and open the books of the avatar series and add *Sel flew in and dropped kick Cyric and gave the peoples elbow and finished him with a stone cold stunner and takes his Godsbane from him and ran off* What happened in the story happens. Let us feel the effects of it since it did effect the whole forgotten realms. If my pc's deity came down and said "Help me" And gives me a little side quests that wont alter the original story but helps support it then oh hell yeah Im all for it.

6. I lost track on what we were talking about nvm sorry if I confused anyone ! Im waiting for server to come back up!

[EasternCheesE]

C'mon, are we really going to have this conversation here? It adds nothing to the server, does not benefit the players RP or gameplay in any way and just causes stir. It's basically pointless. If you want to make a change, contact Wizards of the Coast or something. Let's just play and leave this for the real world.

Another post suggesting we keep our opinions to ourselves lest we upset the status quo.

Not sure why this has caused so much upset, I mean no one thinks this is going to lead to any changes. Examining the media you enjoy can actually be quite interesting if you aren't afraid of having your perceptions challenged from time to time.

I don't think there's anything more to say on this, and no one has really posted a substantive reply in some time. I appreciate the few that did present counter-theories, but it's kind of degenerated into a grievance thread now.

By the form and fact choice you wrote this post, it's something i consider a "smear campaign" against ToT lore creator rather then discussion. Don't take me like staff or whatever. As i person, the whole post sounds fishy intended play of words to make a parallel of "Torm rezd, Mystra not rezd, misoginy and patriarchism" in reader's mind. It's not a discussion, it's an attempt to plant your vision into other's mind.

As number of people including me gave you counter facts about that particular lore episode and you just keep telling ungrounded accusation on tense RL topic against fantasy world creators. In real life, i'd consider that being a slander which is subject to law case if target feels it undermines their reputation. And we have a lot of that shit in real life, just take Johnny Depp losing most of his contracts because of accusations which weren't proven. He lost a lot way before any court session was even held. But we are on anonymous forums and all i can do is straight telling that the way you worded your concerns and the amount of proof you provided is offensive and clearly too narrow to firmly make deductions you made.

Also, "status quo" is several very simple things:
1) Don't throw accusations, especially unproven ones.
2) Be polite.
3) Discuss people ideas and not people themselves.

Sure, it's not written, but it's a common human discourse that is applicable in almost any society and internet societies are not much different unless they specifically state what is right and what is wrong in their forums.

As long as people discuss things in polite and constructive fashion (without "oh be so kind and stuff, just lack of offense and insults"), moderators, in most cases, don't do anything to stop it and you can see it numerous times and numerous debates over forums where people had very different ideas but managed to give them in civil, polite and constructive way, debating about details, understandings of such details, lore/mechanics citations and so on.
As a clear example of this, you can read our famous "ban/not ban elixirs" topics which has it all there: drama, offense, constructive discussions mixed with accusations and check what exact posts got warnings.

In my opinion and vision, very first post of yours and thread name itself are already written in such a shape that "Lore writers are chauvinists and male-supremacists cause female goddess didn't get auto-resurrected after ToT". A good example of lore critics to some extent was introduced in same thread by Asuraking. They don't call something out "cringe, patriatchy and misoginy" without proofs and just share their opinion on clear logical gap in Ao's lore where actions made contradict the reasoning for such actions. There are more well-shared opinions, but i took that one as it's the most obvious example in my view.

Everyone is free to express their opinion, but you can claim X being Y only when you have 200% proof is what you say and you give proof for your opinion, otherwise it's gossips and smear campaign. And even then, you still need to think twice whether you should put labels on someone.