Suggestion: Bear Warrior PrC improvements

[Steve]

I know there have been plenty of Bear Warrior "upgrade NEEDED" threads in the past. I'll refrain from linking them here, though I'm going to add to the pile!

Anyway...there are a few issues and some possible improvements I'll address. Here is the DnD Tools Bear Warrior page for reference.

Issues:
1. Bear Warrior bear form doesn't seem to benefit from Combat Expertise (as seen in JEGs).
2. When selecting the Feat 'Bear Form', which initializes Rage, there is a double cooldown applied: 18s on the Bear Form, and 3 minutes (!!!) on the Rage ability. What this translates to is that if you 'Return to Original Form' before the 3 minute Rage cooldown ends, you cannot use Bear Form again until the cooldown is up!!! That just simply isn't right/good/fair/appropriate/(insert better word here). And although the Bear Form has a "you are tired after..." penalty for 5 rounds after Raging in Bear Form ends...there is something not entirely right here with the mechanics. It should be that if you have X Rages, that the player can use them in succession. And with that 5 rounds of "tired" perhaps as the "cooldown" between uses. Not 3 minutes!
3. The Bear Form GUI that contains Knockdown/Charge/Roar is using the old Knockdown icon and...the Knockdown doesn't work. If you target a mob, then click it, you get nothing. It's probably referencing a dead script.
4. The Roar ability has about a 3 second delay when you click on it. Shouldn't it be immediate?

Improvements:
1. Change the current +8/+10/+12 STR increase to the PnP stats of +8/+16/+20 STR. Considering Item Enhancement Bonuses do not transfer, a Bear Warrior Bear cannot make use of Buffs in the Abilities department.
2. For Dire Bear form (level 10 BW), grant the feat Alertness.
3. For Brown Bear and Dire Bear forms, grant Improved Grapple feat (to match the Improved Grab feat from PnP; also since Knockdown is a now free feat)
4. In form, grant Dash feat (since a bear has a 40ft. movement)

Discuss!! And thanks for considering.

[whatsittoya]

+12 is the maximum enhancement bonus to an ability allowable by the game engine. It's just unfortunate that since they're not morale bonuses they don't stack with gear which can make them a bit less impactful.

[Steve]

+12 is the maximum enhancement bonus to an ability allowable by the game engine. It's just unfortunate that since they're not morale bonuses they don't stack with gear which can make them a bit less impactful.

Hmm. Well then, the alternative is to let Buffs/Item Enhancements stack.

[whatsittoya]

Which I think they would if bear warrior suite were morale bonuses like regular rage is.

[selhan]

"Look for the bare necessities
The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife
I mean the bare necessities
Old Mother Nature's recipes
That bring the bare necessities of life....."


Sorry I had too!

[whatsittoya]

"Look for the bare necessities
The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife
I mean the bare necessities
Old Mother Nature's recipes
That bring the bare necessities of life....."


Sorry I had too!

You've just made an enemy for life!

[Steve]

So the issue with Ability stats is that Bear Warrior is setup with Enhancement bonuses for STR/DEX/CON, and unlike say Spider shape from Cavestalker?

I realize that according to DND Tools the Bear Form is “unlike” Polymorph spell, but there isn’t any specific text that says “buffs shouldn’t apply.”

[whatsittoya]

Unlike other polymorph/wildshape effects, Bear Warrior's bear form doesn't replace your base stats, it just adds to them.

Rage/whirlwind frenzy add morale bonus to abilities which stacks with gear

Bear form adds enhancement bonus to abilities which does not stack with gear

The result is weaker and weaker mileage in late game.

I think Bear Warrior would benefit from granting additional uses of rage since it expects to spend them.

I'm comfortable with the dynamic that bear form is more of a defensive option compared to standard rage (especially whirlwind frenzy) track's more offensive leaning, but bear form probably shouldn't be a reduction in damage from humanoid form for anyone not going the unarmed route.

It might need a bit of a boost to feel tougher. I would give slightly better con progression past the brown bear (+10 in dire bear instead of an identical +8 to brown bear) form and give the claws an innate 1 vamp regen past a certain threshold.

A big hitpoint pool and strong recovery (rather than DR, which someone on the pure con track can also specialize in) is what Bear Warrior wants to be about since it can't get its proper +20 to strength.

Just spitballing

[zhazz]

Isn't the simple solution to just mark the Bear Warrior buffs as Morale rather than Enhancement?
The PrC is a custom one for BG, so we should have full control over it.

[Steve]

Isn't the simple solution to just mark the Bear Warrior buffs as Morale rather than Enhancement?
The PrC is a custom one for BG, so we should have full control over it.

The issue though is that Bear Form is doing what it is supposed to in PnP, except that with NWN2, we have Enhancement limits of +12:

[Bear Form] ...ability score bonuses granted by rage or frenzy are replaced by Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution bonuses appropriate to the bear form taken

If the Abilities could be made to be like as in PnP, then...all would be great and wonderful in the World of Bear Warrior.

Thus, unless there is some secret alternative here, changing the Type of Ability bonuses is the only solution, as suggested.

[Steve]

Unlike other polymorph/wildshape effects, Bear Warrior's bear form doesn't replace your base stats, it just adds to them.

Rage/whirlwind frenzy add morale bonus to abilities which stacks with gear

Bear form adds enhancement bonus to abilities which does not stack with gear

The result is weaker and weaker mileage in late game.

I think Bear Warrior would benefit from granting additional uses of rage since it expects to spend them.

I'm comfortable with the dynamic that bear form is more of a defensive option compared to standard rage (especially whirlwind frenzy) track's more offensive leaning, but bear form probably shouldn't be a reduction in damage from humanoid form for anyone not going the unarmed route.

It might need a bit of a boost to feel tougher. I would give slightly better con progression past the brown bear (+10 in dire bear instead of an identical +8 to brown bear) form and give the claws an innate 1 vamp regen past a certain threshold.

A big hitpoint pool and strong recovery (rather than DR, which someone on the pure con track can also specialize in) is what Bear Warrior wants to be about since it can't get its proper +20 to strength.

Just spitballing

Like Shifter, like so many other PrCs, actually, there are usually a single or 2 options for making the most out of the PrC. Bear Warrior is like this. It's essentially a commitment Build wise, but...what really counts is the RP a Player chooses?!?

Unfortunately, for so many players, building similar Builds and playing them is a turn off—it's just honest how many Players on BGTSCC like to "be creative" in this department, parallel or even even-more-so than Role-play.

Bear Form simply needs a bit more dmg innately, and not just by depending on Gear to get it there. Imho.

[whatsittoya]

Damage would be a good start, but I think leaning more into the 'tank rage' angle would be good as well.

[DaloLorn]

Isn't the simple solution to just mark the Bear Warrior buffs as Morale rather than Enhancement?
The PrC is a custom one for BG, so we should have full control over it.

Rage may be hardcoded to achieve the morale boost. Not sure.

[Steve]

I've had the chance to play a Bear Warrior character IG for a bit now, which is interesting to test against actual content, instead of just JEGs.

Staying in Bear Form is just really, really short. You cannot Role-play anything without burning up your Bear Form minutes/uses in no time. Stop to have an IC interaction? Lose Bear Form uses. Stop to listen to another PC making a comment? Burn up your timer again. The max that a Bear Warrior can have for Bear Form uses/timer is: 6 (Barbarian lvl 20) + 2 (extra rage feat) = 8 per day times 8 rounds (custom base Barbarian Rage) + 8 rounds (base CON @ lvl 30) + 4 rounds (+8 CON in Dire Bear form) + 20 rounds (Extend Rage IV) = 40 rounds (4 minutes RL).

Total, that is 32 minutes of Bear Form per rest...but keep in mind only if you build a Barbarian 20 / Bear Warrior 10. Break up that split, and the total time goes down exponentially. Also...this is with min/maxing to achieve the most base CON score possible, thus taking on some negative Ability stats.

One way of looking at it is it puts the Bear Warrior into a single, cookie cutter build. I know that players never like this.

So what to do? Well, imho, it isn't so much the duration per Rage/Bear Form that is the problem, nor is it even having a limited amount of Rages per Rest—because if one was to solely focus on grinding or whatever, you'd likely be able to stay in Bear Form constantly between Rest Timer (which is best at lvl 30 mind you...so the getting to lvl 30 part is tough).

My suggestion then is renewing Rage uses for Bear Warrior in particular. Something similar to Ki Step uses, where the first use of Bear Form is free, and after NOT using Bear Form for 2+ minutes RL, the next use is free. That way, and especially if one doesn't min/max the Barb20/BW10 CON build, if the Character/build doesn't have max uses/time duration, it can still reliably have some staggered but perpetual use (even say, after using up all available Rages, if the character waits 2 RL minutes, they'd have another use...essentially always 1 use available).

Or, something of the sort. What do you think?

---

On a related but different note, as was pointed out to me, and I've noticed now, Bear Warrior gains many of what it NEEDS to be viable, through other Classes (DR from Barbarian and massive CON and then Epic DR; Fighter only Unarmed feats that transfer to Bear Warrior form). That means that Bear Warrior itself is not so special—except for the Bear form itself—because these other Classes/builds benefit from their own perks just as much if not more.

Is it the best design to essentially force a Bear Warrior character into a max CON thus max Epic DR thus max tank thus...nothing else build structure?!? What about singing, dancing, fishing, scouting, sleeping (lol) Bear Warrior builds...that don't completely suck mechanically?

All one needs to do is look at how Wild Shape, Polymorph, Shifter forms, Legendary Forms are functioning on BGTSCC, then compare to Bear Forms, and see the massive difference. Should Bear Warrior Bear Form also get 15 /- DR? Should it get enhancements from buffing?

If we are talking about pure power output and/or abuse, any player would be MUCH better benefited by going Druid 30 w/ Legendary Animal Shape for getting a Bear form with basic 15 / DR, all those Druid buffs, plus the Reckless Fury ability (Bear): +4 AB/dmg, -4 AC, 20/- DR for 10 rounds with a 3 minute cooldown...

...than Bear Warrior.

[mrm3ntalist]

Hey steve, bear warrior has come up many times in the past. The thing is that you are asking for Bear warrior, a 10 level prc to be as viable as lets say the Shifter Prc which is 20 levels. As of now, you can create a powerful character with the base class ( barbarian especially as you pointed out ) then add the 10lvls of bear warrior for extra fluff and abilities. Make it a 20lvl Prc then give the bear regen etc etc.

As far as the Barbarian and CON comment, why does that suprise you? The barbarians main ability is based on CON and one should expect to max it. So ye, for me, bear warrior is just fine as is now

EDIT: One thing i would add to bear warrior, is that the character is fully healed when enters Bear mode, but that can be abused in pvp unless a coodown timer is used for switching back to the original form and using the ability again