Feedback on Server Mechanics Direction

[Rhifox]

Hello, BGTSCC players. I'd like to get your thoughts on a few different proposals for where to take the server mechanically moving forward. As most are aware already, we have a planned PvE rework, which involves redoing most mobs and dungeons on the server, as well as implementing crafting, enchantment, and factions. This was meant to be started earlier in the summer, but I needed to take a break from development for awhile. I'm now getting ready to start on it.

There's a major hurdle with redesigning the server's mechanics: DnD was not designed for epic levels. The game's numbers get completely out of whack, and that's just with baseline Epic Level Handbook mechanics. The custom epic mechanics used on NWN2 are even worse. This isn't simply a matter 'too many levels'. There are serious obstacles this raises in actually developing content for the server. Everything we do, from development to DMing, is significantly harder because of epic levels.

To summarize a few of the most egregious issues:

1) Designing mobs requires significantly more work. More levels means more feats. More levels means better gear. Better gear means mobs need equivalent gear to stack up. More levels means more spells mobs need to be assigned, more spells players need to combat them with. Everything about designing a mob takes more work with epic levels. As an example, I just recently imported some important NPCs from pnp that required scaling up from level 25 to level 50. That's another 25 levels of progression I have to do just to create this mob for it to be the appropriate power for its narrative.

2) No synchronization between pnp epic content and server epic content. We do not go on level 30 adventures, we go on level 5-15 adventures with 30 mechanical levels. This means that we can't use monsters out of the epic level handbook, and it means any monsters we use out of the normal handbook have to be scaled up to match the content level of the server. We've largely settled on mechanical 30 narrative 15 conventions, with mob stats recalculated as 'mob HD x2'. But as said in 1, this means every single monster we use out of the MM has to be manually scaled up for the PvE rework.

3) Excessive damage output, leading to swingy combat. In the pnp epic rules, most forms of statistical progression stop at 20. You gain increased BAB, but not increased attacks. You no longer gain your classes' save bonuses, but instead gain +1 to all saves every other epic level. On BG, however, these things continue scaling upwards into infinity. As you gain more BAB, you gain more attacks. As you gain more class levels, you continue to gain saves using that class's progression (meaning further optimizing of saves). The issue with saves is less of an issue (as the problem with mob saves is tied more to manual save inflation done by past developers), but it is a major problem with attacks. See, when using monster manual stats for monsters, encounters in general get more appropriate numbers than we have right now... except in APR. Epic mobs with 8-10 attacks per round. This already piles onto the fact that many creatures are meant to only have a number of attacks equal to their number of creature weapons (typically 3). This raises the number of 20's you have to deal with in combat, especially if we do any system where there's more than one mob in an encounter. Imagine a group of 3 mobs with 6-8 APR each. That's a lot of attacks, and a lot of autohitting 20s.

This has had the knock-on effect of requiring mobs to be inflated with far more HP than they should have, just to deal with the extra damage. PCs also gain somewhat more HP as well with always-maximized HP. Due to this, spells have also had to be changed to deal more damage each in order to stack up.

If we do a pve rework, redesigning mobs to be more appropriate to pnp, we will run into the issue where they deal vastly more damage than intended, while having relatively low HP pools (unless we continue to maximize them, instead of halving them).

4) Skills. We run into the issue where there can be no standardized skill DCs because the difference between a low level PC's skills and a high level one's are so high. How do you challenge the higher level player without arbitrarily raising DCs to match? If people are rocking rolls of 60-80 for a knowledge check, when the most obscure, arcane knowledge is supposed to be a DC 30 check, what's even the point?

5) Reduced amount of content. The more levels you have, the more dungeons have to be spread across those levels. Every level range has only a very few locations to go to because we've had to spread what content we have over so many levels. Again, this falls back to number 1: to support epic level characters requires putting in a lot more work, which diminishes the play experience.

6) General issues of level gap between low level characters and high level ones. DnD was designed for around a 4-level range between the highest and lowest levels. We have a 30-level range. In PvE, it limits the number of people you can group and earn exp with. In RP, it becomes hard for DMs to support characters of all level ranges simultaneously, because content that would be a challenge for one will be a one-shot for the other. This often leads into the issue where most plots take place at epic levels (the most common levels for active characters), leaving low levels to twiddle their thumbs. "RP starts at 30", as they say.

7) Access to spells that outright trivialize certain challenges. Immunities, high level scrying, teleportation, etc. This also includes UMD. Higher level cap makes getting access to max level spells without being a spellcaster possible. Lower level caps put a cap on how far UMD can take you in terms of scroll access.

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Before I can start the PvE rework, I need to know what kind of system we are going to settle on. Because if we are ever going to change it, now is the time. So! How do we move forward, with the above in mind? Well, there's a few options. This is where your feedback comes into play.

Here are several proposals for how to handle the pve rework, going from most change to least.

Proposal 1: Level Cap 15
Reduce the level cap to 15. This is the biggest change to the way the server functions, but it also fixes the most foundational problems. Monsters can be used straight out of the monster manual with limited changes needed beyond coding their special abilities. Spells can be reset back to their original values. Characters have the appropriate number of attacks, the amount of content available for everyone is essentially doubled as there would be a squishing of the level range. More people to group with because the gap is smaller. Less access to gamebreaking spells. We could also remove 3b20.

The issues with this proposal is that it requires the biggest change to you, the players. You lose many levels, and have less options for customization. Your gear has to be scaled down to match the new environment, if not wiped entirely. Epic-level feats you've come to rely on will no longer be available (EDM, Expose Weakness, Epic Precision, etc).

Some ways we can address some of these problems:

- Open up access to templates to provide a new form of progression.
- Do an E6 style of progression where you can continue to unlock feats as you gain experience, without increasing actual level. This increases diversity and customization without increasing overall power.
- Adjust problematic mobs like undead so that essential epic feats like Epic Precision are no longer needed. (it's also less needed because of the content scrunch increasing the number of areas players have access to for their level range)


Proposal 2: FRCS Epic Rules
Use the epic level system provided by the Forgotten Realms Campaign manual. In the FRCS epic level system, standard leveling stops at 20. You no longer gain traditional levels, you never gain epic level feats, and so on. Instead, at every epic level, you choose from a selection of 'Epic Level Benefits'. These benefits are:

- +1 Effective Level (gain a level in a class, acquiring its features and skill points, but no increase to BAB, HD, or saving throws).
- +1 to an Ability Score
- +1 to Attack Rolls (this increases AB, but not APR)
- +1 Bonus Spell Level (1 spell slot per day above your current limit. Eg 10th level slots, 11th level, and so on, used for metamagic and such). Only selectable if you have 20 levels in a spellcasting class. Due to NWN2 limits on our ability to go above (or support) spell levels above 9, we could instead replace this benefit with one epic spell instead.
- Taking levels in some epic-level-only PRC.

As the basic combat numbers don't improve after 20, this reduces the challenge of developing content and encounters while still providing some level of epic level progress and customization. Due to being a change to how progression works, established characters would be reset to the new 'soft cap' of 20, and then build up from there under the new system. We can also remove 3b20 in this system.

This again has the issue with losing epic feats and requiring changes to current equipment, as well as dropping characters from level 30 to level 20, but maintains all the same options to address it as in proposal 1.


Proposal 3: 4 APR Cap
Use the current system, but cap BAB APR to 4. This is closer to the epic rules in the Epic Level Handbook. Content still requires scaling up for the Mechanic 30 Narrative 15 model, but otherwise nothing changes from how you play now. Damage output becomes more reasonable, making combat slower and less swingy.


Proposal 4: No Change
Stay the course, continue developing for the current NWN2 systems, including increasing APR etc. Because this risks the pve rework moving from inflated HP to inflated APR (as my earliest blueprints has shown monsters with lower HP than they do on live but higher damage output, with groups of mobs adding to this issue), this likely requires more homebrewing in order to address the balance issues inherent in this system (it might, for example, require players and mobs to have higher HP than current, and give some level of progression to spell damage in order to keep up with melee damage, etc), but requires the least change to how players currently play.



Regardless of all of whichever of these are done, I plan on adding an in-game building app to allow players to plan out their builds on live. This is the easiest way to getting around the issues with NWN2db being too old for BG, as an in-game builder app can pull directly from the game's own files.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Any opportunity to run a test server in tandem to let players have some exposure to what the PW will feel like under a level cap? A jump-off point to give players exposure to what the change will look like and sus up any major issues from the onset and can either commit if the playerbase is comfortable with it, or move on to the other options.

[White]

My heart says Proposal #1, but my brain tells me Proposal #3.

[Rhifox]

Any opportunity to run a test server in tandem to let players have some exposure to what the PW will feel like under a level cap? A jump-off point to give players exposure to what the change will look like and sus up any major issues from the onset and can either commit if the playerbase is comfortable with it, or move on to the other options.

It's possible, but could be a lot of work to create that testing environment, which could be better spent developing stuff for the live server.

[Antras89]

I like 3 and 4.

In nwn2 or DnD i like to have alot option to customize build, difrent clases, prestige ones, with other options it..just kill it. (As for example option with max 15 lvl kill some prestige clases like Archmage). So i prefer to stay with more open door for customization, then hm.. narrative and mechanical 15 (or 20 in option 2)
Aslo with less prestige classes, (with less lvls) also kill alot cool abilities what can give difrent prestige classes.

[DaloLorn]

Definitely not 1. This is not, IMO, a survivable change for a server of this age, nor do I think it's technically feasible in a reasonable amount of time without taking on a bunch of extra devs. (That said, you've made me wonder if we could simply reduce the value of a level for certain problematic stats, like BAB, saving throws, and HP - for instance, halving the hit dice of all classes, halving BAB progression, etc., to get the most important benefits of a level cap reduction with as few of the drawbacks and as quickly as we can.)

I have similar reservations about 2, though it is a little less dangerous on all fronts. At the same time, I'm uncertain if 3 can be enough to fix those problems that do exist. A hybrid, perhaps? Might be worth discussing.

I notice there's no mention of skill/save stacking, under any proposal. People can't roll 80s without skill stacking, and save inflation is not a mob-only issue. (Unless you're like me, and manage to consistently fail to inflate your saves to absurdity. )

[Rhifox]

I like 3 and 4.

In nwn2 or DnD i like to have alot option to customize build, difrent clases, prestige ones, with other options it..just kill it. (As for example option with max 15 lvl kill some prestige clases like Archmage). So i prefer to stay with more open door for customization, then hm.. narrative and mechanical 15 (or 20 in option 2)

In 1 and 2, classes adjusted for epic levels would probably be changed back to their pnp mechanics. So Archmage would be a 5 level class instead of 10 level.

[DaloLorn]

I like 3 and 4.

In nwn2 or DnD i like to have alot option to customize build, difrent clases, prestige ones, with other options it..just kill it. (As for example option with max 15 lvl kill some prestige clases like Archmage). So i prefer to stay with more open door for customization, then hm.. narrative and mechanical 15 (or 20 in option 2)

In 1 and 2, classes adjusted for epic levels would probably be changed back to their pnp mechanics. So Archmage would be a 5 level class instead of 10 level.

Point of order: This would not suffice to make Archmage a viable class for a 15-level cap. Even with the PnP mechanics, you need a minimum of 18 character levels to hit Archmage 5.

[Rhifox]

I notice there's no mention of skill/save stacking, under any proposal. People can't roll 80s without skill stacking, and save inflation is not a mob-only issue. (Unless you're like me, and manage to consistently fail to inflate your saves to absurdity. )

I do want to address skill and save stacking, but that still requires finding a reasonable solution to the stealth problem, so I consider it a separate topic.

I like 3 and 4.

In nwn2 or DnD i like to have alot option to customize build, difrent clases, prestige ones, with other options it..just kill it. (As for example option with max 15 lvl kill some prestige clases like Archmage). So i prefer to stay with more open door for customization, then hm.. narrative and mechanical 15 (or 20 in option 2)

In 1 and 2, classes adjusted for epic levels would probably be changed back to their pnp mechanics. So Archmage would be a 5 level class instead of 10 level.

Point of order: This would not suffice to make Archmage a viable class with a 15-level cap. Even with the PnP mechanics, you need a minimum of 18 character levels to hit Archmage 5.

In a proper pnp system, you're not really intended to max out all (or even some) of your PRCs.

[Antras89]

I like 3 and 4.

In nwn2 or DnD i like to have alot option to customize build, difrent clases, prestige ones, with other options it..just kill it. (As for example option with max 15 lvl kill some prestige clases like Archmage). So i prefer to stay with more open door for customization, then hm.. narrative and mechanical 15 (or 20 in option 2)

In 1 and 2, classes adjusted for epic levels would probably be changed back to their pnp mechanics. So Archmage would be a 5 level class instead of 10 level.

in this case i can only take 2-3 maybe lvls of this prestige class
+ if i somehow menage to take arcane fire, it will be scale from 5 not 10, so only good ability of this prestige class will be scale of 2-3 not 10, in this case will be usless (not mention other hight magic.. saddly)

[DaloLorn]

In 1 and 2, classes adjusted for epic levels would probably be changed back to their pnp mechanics. So Archmage would be a 5 level class instead of 10 level.

Point of order: This would not suffice to make Archmage a viable class with a 15-level cap. Even with the PnP mechanics, you need a minimum of 18 character levels to hit Archmage 5.

In a proper pnp system, you're not really intended to max out all (or even some) of your PRCs.

At the same time, there is no point to having a class with literally unattainable levels.

[The Whistler]

I'll lay out my thoughts in greater detail at some point later in the thread, but right now proposal 2 is the one that intrigues me the most. I have some concerns though; is the 3by20 staying ? Are PrCs being changed to properly scale for more than 10 levels like blackguard and assassin ? Also, how are the mechanics going to make sense from a pnp perspective ? Elminster would still be a chump compared to a well built lvl 20 BG character.

[Antras89]

I'll lay out my thoughts in greater detail at some point later in the thread, but right now proposal 2 is the one that intrigues me the most. I have some concerns though; is the 3by20 staying ? Are PrCs being changed to properly scale for more than 10 levels like blackguard and assassin ? Also, how are the mechanics going to make sense from a pnp perspective ? Elminster would still be a chump compared to a well built lvl 20 BG character.

As most of the epic or "heros" from pnp D&D. Power of characters like Elminster, are also of they equipment, magical items and other things what most of the characters here cannot have and what give them alot advantages.
If DM have problem with player who want to atack such character, he can always can do turn combat, in this case use advanatages items or specific powers...simple.

[NCrawler]

Proposal 3, maybe 4 would probably be best. I think if you go with 1 or 2 it will be the final nail in the coffin of the server. Many would quit if you start taking things from characters that have been around for years collecting stuff. Just IMO.

[Almarea90]

I'd say 2. The only thing that prevents me from choosing 1 is that we must entirely depend from the NPC for certain spell (assuming they have access to them) like true resurrection, instead of encouraging to seek other players. A level 20 cap is a good solution.