Feedback on Server Mechanics Direction

[cosmic ray]

Option four sems really bad, and those stance feats becoming useless only makes it even worse. I hadn't even thought of them feats.

Edit: sorry, I mean option 3.

[blacksoft]

Option four sems really bad, and those stance feats becoming useless only makes it even worse. I hadn't even thought of them feats.

Edit: sorry, I mean option 3.

Don't forget impact for xbow builds and OOTBI builds.

[Tanlaus]

I'd stick firmly to 4; and focus on homebrewing content within current systems and operating improvements in other areas. - I appreciate the thought and the work that's been done. Some of the larger radical changes have implications that have heavy penalties for players that have spent years on things they've lovingly crafted here working under the current system. Change is good; but we're an old community of friends - with amazing new editions. There's ways here to avoid nuking the camp.

I agree with this. Look at the Kuo Toa dungeon in the UD. It can be a challenged for higher level characters because of the way it is built. This could be true of plenty of epic areas by reworking the design of the encounters instead of reworking the entire server.

Make epic encounters like the devils and dragons far more powerful and there’s no need to nerf everything else.

I am sorry what challenge do you talk of? One lvl 30 or two lvl 30 pcs cut trough it like a butter. My lvl 23 fs survives there with basic spells lvl 3.

Dungeons should be designed to be a challenge for 4 pcs of the CR.

4 pcs of lvl 30 will not even sweat in kuo toa. And I am told it is one of the most challenging.

Dalo's argument about "how do you rp sudden loss of belongings" is also sily. You just keep to playing on what's so hard about it.

It’s easier now because people know what to expect, what potions to bring, what effects to counter, and how to deal with the Aboleth. When it was first implemented and people didn’t know what to expect, there were plenty of party wipes. I watched them myself.

The problem with static content is, if it’s doable at all it can be mastered. But that doesn’t change just by a level cap. You just push player power and mob power down and end up more or less in the same place… only the balance swings more towards casters and more away from melees.

Whatever the cap, there will be power builds and people who know how to maximize their character according to whatever the current mechanics are.

[Rask]

I mean, I liked the level 20 cap with "epic" feats, but as a spin have massively reduced XP gain and have monsters capped at around level 15 outside of Dm events.

Buuuuut....

For the life of the server, and the sanity of dear Rhifox I would have to throw my vote in with 3 or 4. I agree with Dalo on page 1 that said that any huge changes like a full level 15 cap would kill a server this old with such a small player base. Lots of long time players here who are used to the server being a certain style of play, to remove that would alienate pretty much everyone whos left.

Overall though just making the mobs less "epic" and have more accessible areas that isn't just built for power builds and murder hobo's in general would be really nice to see. I am fairly easy to please there. I'd also like to see a lot of our crappier classes reworked a bit, the ones nobody uses. I know a few already have been, and thats been great.

[Rask]

I understand time zones can be difficult. Doesn't hurt to reach out as see if someone can make time if you've got something in mind. Collaboration is key!

With all due respect, it is muuuuuch, much harder than this reads in practice. Stability in RP opportunities is quite frankly a privilege one can only truly feel when you're in the absence of it. :/

Starting over from scratch with someone? It can only go so far. Prior progress with past partners matter - its IMO tiring and disrespectful for the effort you've built to keep rehashing the same song-and-dance with entirely new people without pressing forward with your prior RPs, and that's impossible to do when your RP opportunities are basically limited to random meetups.

This lack of RP, and again, paired with the slog of 1-30 here makes the experience feel needlessly stretched out for players on the fringes. Probably talking to deaf ears at this point, but that's my two cents on it.

P.S. Maybe level cap doesn't have to be changed, but a change in rate of level progression would be appreciated.

This is one I can never wrap my head around. Why the rush to 30? You don't need to be level 30 to RP or engage with others. This isn't World of Warcraft where you cant play with your friends if you're not max level. Getting to 30 should be an end goal but having it take months to do is not a bad thing, it makes each level more rewarding to gain and when you do hit 30 it feels like an accomplishment.

IMO the server gives XP and gold way too easily as it is now. But we can't really ratchet that back anymore now that we made the change to do that some years ago.

[Kayle Walker]

I understand time zones can be difficult. Doesn't hurt to reach out as see if someone can make time if you've got something in mind. Collaboration is key!

With all due respect, it is muuuuuch, much harder than this reads in practice. Stability in RP opportunities is quite frankly a privilege one can only truly feel when you're in the absence of it. :/

Starting over from scratch with someone? It can only go so far. Prior progress with past partners matter - its IMO tiring and disrespectful for the effort you've built to keep rehashing the same song-and-dance with entirely new people without pressing forward with your prior RPs, and that's impossible to do when your RP opportunities are basically limited to random meetups.

This lack of RP, and again, paired with the slog of 1-30 here makes the experience feel needlessly stretched out for players on the fringes. Probably talking to deaf ears at this point, but that's my two cents on it.

P.S. Maybe level cap doesn't have to be changed, but a change in rate of level progression would be appreciated.

This is one I can never wrap my head around. Why the rush to 30? You don't need to be level 30 to RP or engage with others. This isn't World of Warcraft where you cant play with your friends if you're not max level. Getting to 30 should be an end goal but having it take months to do is not a bad thing, it makes each level more rewarding to gain and when you do hit 30 it feels like an accomplishment.

IMO the server gives XP and gold way too easily as it is now. But we can't really ratchet that back anymore now that we made the change to do that some years ago.

Because for my specific predicament, there are times where there's no option but to just run solo. Imagine your peak hours usually only having 5-10 people around, and most of them dungeon runners. There's no RP, and the PvE is a slog. Again, stability is a privilege of the NAs and EUs.

[Rask]

With all due respect, it is muuuuuch, much harder than this reads in practice. Stability in RP opportunities is quite frankly a privilege one can only truly feel when you're in the absence of it. :/

Starting over from scratch with someone? It can only go so far. Prior progress with past partners matter - its IMO tiring and disrespectful for the effort you've built to keep rehashing the same song-and-dance with entirely new people without pressing forward with your prior RPs, and that's impossible to do when your RP opportunities are basically limited to random meetups.

This lack of RP, and again, paired with the slog of 1-30 here makes the experience feel needlessly stretched out for players on the fringes. Probably talking to deaf ears at this point, but that's my two cents on it.

P.S. Maybe level cap doesn't have to be changed, but a change in rate of level progression would be appreciated.

This is one I can never wrap my head around. Why the rush to 30? You don't need to be level 30 to RP or engage with others. This isn't World of Warcraft where you cant play with your friends if you're not max level. Getting to 30 should be an end goal but having it take months to do is not a bad thing, it makes each level more rewarding to gain and when you do hit 30 it feels like an accomplishment.

IMO the server gives XP and gold way too easily as it is now. But we can't really ratchet that back anymore now that we made the change to do that some years ago.

Because for my specific predicament, there are times where there's no option but to just run solo. Imagine your peak hours usually only having 5-10 people around, and most of them dungeon runners. There's no RP, and the PvE is a slog. Again, stability is a privilege of the NAs and EUs.

I dont have to imagine when that is my playtime. West Coast NA has not much going on in the evenings. Maybe not 10 people, but not too far off. Its just a bunch of bar and tavern RPers and not much else when I play. Everything happens at like 9am to 1pm when im at work or busy. Getting to level 30 is not something i've ever found helps this scenario.

[Kayle Walker]

I dont have to imagine when that is my playtime. West Coast NA has not much going on in the evenings. Maybe not 10 people, but not too far off. Its just a bunch of bar and tavern RPers and not much else when I play. Everything happens at like 9am to 1pm when im at work or busy. Getting to level 30 is not something i've ever found helps this scenario.

With all due respect, that's not even close to where I'm at.

You can still RP when you maybe get a day off, or there's a shift in player's willingness to play at night.

I can RP if someone is insomniac, or if I literally invert my sleep schedule.

[Freckles]

I sometimes wonder why we even have stuff like northlander hewing and athlatkan whatever...
Sure it is nice and might give your northern brute the right appeal. But just like with hips, everyone who can is gonna take it. Not just the mysterious shadowdancer types or the northern barbarians. Everyone.
And I still believe all those prc classes are just out there to sell more rulebooks. But, of course to keep the game from getting boring and having played it all you need endless possibilities.
But isn't exactly that what's actually wrong about this? When you are more concerened about how to make that build work and then wrap it into something called character.

In Dnd 1st Edition you could chose from like 5 different classes only. Sounds laughable nowadays but it had this little secret to it. It was you chosing an archetype and then develop your character around that core. Pretty much predefined what you will be if it comes to numbers so no need to worry about them like at all.

Back to the feats: Orcs are already stronger and a barbarian can rage.. isn't that already some kind of Northlander Hewing?
Why do we treat shadowdancing like a tavern event on the weekend where everyone does the shadowdance?

Maybe we do it all wrong. Just can't get rid of the devils we summoned and go back to when less was more anymore.
Option 1 or 2 would certainly be the choice for that.

Maybe this community is not really sure what it wants to be. Some say it is roleplay, some 'less talk more fight' some just pick any build and roleplay and others think roleplay is all about build building.
If this was only about roleplay as in talking all day I probably wouldn't be here. This server includes all these type of players. A blessing and a curse, isn't it?
And to keep having that it is option 3 or rather 4, I guess.

But one more thing and thanks for reading this far. A thought that crossed my mind a while ago concerning "everyone goes powerbuild". I think it is two things that drive us down that spiral. It is pvp (I got owned, I need a better build!) and it is too challenging high level areas.
If maps and mobs allow for characters without skills and damage output through the roof you might just not go for that superbuild and still find it challenging but since there will be a crafting system you might also be able to do that as well with the same character even as opposed to grind up your appraiser or crafter toon that doesn't really serve any other purpose than just that.

I just read through all the comments and had to add to the confusion.
I stick with the option that makes it faster and easier to add more maps to the pool so that there are more areas to go to and to play in.
It would be what I'm looking for and would trade that for some epic feats or levels or whatever anyday. Those that still play this game after all these years do it anyway and for good reasons. Don't think their reasons are some epic feats. Oh, and those who left when ToT happened.. they will be back when that is over. Sooner or later.

TLDR;

~cheers~

[Planehopper]

I stick with the option that makes it faster and easier to add more maps to the pool

To be clear, number 4 isnt going to add any maps any faster than the rest.. in fact by keeping a 30 level spread you'll have less maps per cr range.

I'm all for folks sharing their opinions but it seems like a lot of confusion for the basis of some of those opinions.

Its disappointing to have no less then 4 people say privately that they want 1 or 2 but that "people would hate that". And then two of them are in this thread calling for 4. Lol. You are all "people" and your opinions matter. If one or two are your choice, consider saying that?

If you like 4, thats cool too of course. I dont expect we all have similar tastes and dont fault anyone for them. For me I dont see myself motivated by 4 at all. To maintain status quo is to say we are on the right trajectory right now and i just dont feel thats the case.

[Azroth]

For me I dont see myself motivated by 4 at all. To maintain status quo is to say we are on the right trajectory right now and i just dont feel thats the case.

While I agree with you on this part, I am sure what we have both seen.
My own thoughts are mostly the fact I don't see any of these options favorable as proposed.
Mind you I don't play here anymore. Being a direct result of your claims. And in fact I have seen most players generally unhappy if not just frustrated in general with anything revolving nwn2. People used to blame Discord as a more anecdotal evidence sort of claim, when it was much bigger than a simple program others used.

I have seen a straw man fallacy being brought up a lot, and some questions dodged here even. One brought up at one time, and yet to see it responded too: what is the logic behind this proposal as a whole?

That also does interest me too. And I would love to see an answer.

However, I am not sure at this time much will change even if mechanical. You may lose more people over time regardless, more so due to how the narrative of the server is. I have had close friends of mine be far smarter than I was I will admit by leaving nwn2 as a whole after trying some of the remainder servers years ago after leaving one after another, as he saw a pattern. I did too, I just miserably held onto things I had little control over and had to learn how to let go over time. This perhaps was my best choice out of them all related to nwn2.

Not to mention there's a lot not yet fixed that should be, which was left over years and years. such as some rules clarifications that some of us been asking for a while now. Rather than adding and expanding, perhaps a choice should be made as a proposal to fix the existing. Then move onto the next project.

I mean, it took how many years to get ranged mechanics fixed here? The more projects you add and disregard the rest, the more you add to the pile to fix overtime.

[Pan-some]

4 four me.............

[Rask]

I stick with the option that makes it faster and easier to add more maps to the pool

To be clear, number 4 isnt going to add any maps any faster than the rest.. in fact by keeping a 30 level spread you'll have less maps per cr range.

I'm all for folks sharing their opinions but it seems like a lot of confusion for the basis of some of those opinions.

Its disappointing to have no less then 4 people say privately that they want 1 or 2 but that "people would hate that". And then two of them are in this thread calling for 4. Lol. You are all "people" and your opinions matter. If one or two are your choice, consider saying that?

If you like 4, thats cool too of course. I dont expect we all have similar tastes and dont fault anyone for them. For me I dont see myself motivated by 4 at all. To maintain status quo is to say we are on the right trajectory right now and i just dont feel thats the case.

Funny enough I wish we had less maps. I found the server FAR more interactive when everyone wasn't so spread out all over the place. I used to actually be able to run into other players from time to time in the world. As it stands right now, the server feels empty and lifeless to me when I log in, it is extremely rare that I run into another player in the open world now, even if there are 20-25 people on, because everyone is so spread out across all those maps. There is no natural, neutral congregation point anymore like there was years back (the old camp fire, outside of BG.) and roads and paths dont naturally funnel people together in travel.

Unpopular opinion but i'd rather see less maps (unless they are DM maps.).

[Rad-Icarus]

Definitely not 1. This is not, IMO, a survivable change for a server of this age, nor do I think it's technically feasible in a reasonable amount of time without taking on a bunch of extra devs. (That said, you've made me wonder if we could simply reduce the value of a level for certain problematic stats, like BAB, saving throws, and HP - for instance, halving the hit dice of all classes, halving BAB progression, etc., to get the most important benefits of a level cap reduction with as few of the drawbacks and as quickly as we can.)

I have similar reservations about 2, though it is a little less dangerous on all fronts. At the same time, I'm uncertain if 3 can be enough to fix those problems that do exist. A hybrid, perhaps? Might be worth discussing.

I notice there's no mention of skill/save stacking, under any proposal. People can't roll 80s without skill stacking, and save inflation is not a mob-only issue. (Unless you're like me, and manage to consistently fail to inflate your saves to absurdity. )

I really like this suggestion because it still gives you the thrill and feeling of progressing from levelling up, which is a huge part of the draw for an RPG.

I like the idea of having a more rooted experience where the difference between lowest and top level is not like comparing a feeble commoner VS practically a god. I also like the idea that at higher level, low level mobs may not be a challenge, but they aren't like made of tissue paper either. It feels more grounded.

This goes to another issue I personally have but maybe others feel this way too: Offense and damage kinda trumps everything at higher levels... the ability to dish out massive numbers from ranged and melee damage seems to make everything a breeze. Even monsters with pumped up HP and DR seems to just fall in a round before monsters can launch more than a single attack or two (aside from a few top bosses). This kinda leads to parties not needed diverse or support character or any kind of interesting tactics. I think when people say the combat on NWN2 is trash, it's because we're running the same areas without very much resistance or the drama and interpersonal character development that comes from enduring a tough challenge as a party.

So I'm all for the grounding things somewhat more, even though this will probably ruin my favorite character builds. In the long run I'm for many of these proposed changes.

[Rad-Icarus]

I stick with the option that makes it faster and easier to add more maps to the pool

To be clear, number 4 isnt going to add any maps any faster than the rest.. in fact by keeping a 30 level spread you'll have less maps per cr range.

I'm all for folks sharing their opinions but it seems like a lot of confusion for the basis of some of those opinions.

Its disappointing to have no less then 4 people say privately that they want 1 or 2 but that "people would hate that". And then two of them are in this thread calling for 4. Lol. You are all "people" and your opinions matter. If one or two are your choice, consider saying that?

If you like 4, thats cool too of course. I dont expect we all have similar tastes and dont fault anyone for them. For me I dont see myself motivated by 4 at all. To maintain status quo is to say we are on the right trajectory right now and i just dont feel thats the case.

Funny enough I wish we had less maps. I found the server FAR more interactive when everyone wasn't so spread out all over the place. I used to actually be able to run into other players from time to time in the world. As it stands right now, the server feels empty and lifeless to me when I log in, it is extremely rare that I run into another player in the open world now, even if there are 20-25 people on, because everyone is so spread out across all those maps. There is no natural, neutral congregation point anymore like there was years back (the old camp fire, outside of BG.) and roads and paths dont naturally funnel people together in travel.

Unpopular opinion but i'd rather see less maps (unless they are DM maps.).

I like that there are more maps in the wilderness and more dungeons to explore. There may be too many towns, but honestly I would not want to be the one to decide which towns to cut out... and honestly I think it only feels like there are too many because of my next point:

My personal belief and opinion, is that what fractures the playerbase are these palacial guilds and faction headquarters and housing where small groups sequester themselves away in and rarely come out to interact with the playerbase at large. If people were actually spending time in the villages and city areas instead of in guild and faction houses... we probably wouldn't feel like there are too many areas. That is just my take.