Open up Spirit Shaman Deity List*

[cosmic ray]

Open up the Spirit Shaman deity list if the lore of the class supports that. Druids are restricted in that way, but are shamans? If they are, please ignore this post, wipe my vault, get me fired and freeze my bank accounts.

[DaloLorn]

I think there are technical limitations involved.

[DM Soulcatcher]

Open up the Spirit Shaman deity list if the lore of the class supports that. Druids are restricted in that way, but are shamans? If they are, please ignore this post, wipe my vault, get me fired and freeze my bank accounts.

*Cancels you on twitter*

[Ghost]

DM team ruled against this, based on the theme of the class and the spell list.

[Rhifox]

The DM team's decision is one I would strongly argue against and makes absolutely no sense for the theme of the class. Spirit shamans are only limited to nature deities as a product of NWN2 mechanics, and only the mechanics, because the main spirit shaman character in the game has no such limitations. It makes no sense.

Rangers also have nature spells, and yet aren't limited to nature deities in FR. Druids being limited to nature deities is a druid-specific thing, not a 'having a nature spell list' thing.


In any case, it's rather irrelevant since the druid spell list is hardcoded to nature deities. With our knowledge these days I'm sure we could unlink it but it's a lot of work for a very niche application.

[DM Soulcatcher]

Ok then.

I am picking this gauntlet up.

Faiths and Pantheons, page 90:


Druids and rangers are required to pick one of those deities. If you want to throw the argument of rangers not being restricted and that it's somehow hypocritical of us then, kindly, take that up with the DM Team that allowed it over 6 years ago. We are not the same people.

On the topic of Spirit Shamans, however, there are several things you have to consider. No matter how you look at it, bite it, season it, cook it or want for it to be different, it is like THIS:










Complete Divine flat-out says their role is very much the same as Druid. They combine ancestor worship WITH animal and nature worship. They revere nature itself and the unity between the spiritual and natural world.

Do you know what it does not mention? Demons. Devils. Elder Evils. Gods other than of nature. But let's come back to Forgotten Realms. Divine Magic comes strictly from Deities in our setting. Nature magic comes strictly from the gods of nature. Random spirits, whatever they are, are unable to grant any powers in Forgotten Realms other than slaying you with their own magic.

...Except for Rashemen. Yeah sure, Hathran and Duthran. That exists. Spiritual world exists, too.

But, in fact, I can make an argument that it exists only there and nowhere else. In fact, I can make a very valid argument that Spirit Shaman shouldn't exist outside of Rashemen. Here's why:



The prime example of a Spirit Shaman is, of course, Rashemen. It is a place which is primal enough that spirits exist in that mostly untouched by civilisation land. They are practically everywhere, bound to certain locations, and those are the spirits that the witches of Rashemen work with- both good and bad. But the moment they step outside, these benefits of the spirits are gone. Boom. Null. You still receive your spells if you're a wizard witch or a cleric witch, but you lose all benefits of spirits working with you. These spirits are present nowhere else but Rashemen.

So no. Our ruling is the most logical and setting-plausible solution in accordance with the server's setting. The theme of the class isn't being a shaman working with dark forces. It is working with spirits of nature, specifically and only.

[Rhifox]

Gods other than of nature. But let's come back to Forgotten Realms. Divine Magic comes strictly from Deities in our setting. Nature magic comes strictly from the gods of nature. Random spirits, whatever they are, are unable to grant any powers in Forgotten Realms other than slaying you with their own magic.

Frankly, while I've generally tried to reason that spirits are aspects of greater gods as a reason why they work in the FR system, I'm just going to move away from that argument. I instead say that I honestly fundamentally disagree with the constant assertion that spirits aren't gods in their own right. Spirits are worshiped as gods by any animist religious system. Many tribal deities, totem deities, are spirits (a greater nature god might provide powers through those spirits, as Malar often does, but the people still pray to actual nature spirits). The Uthgardt tribes, the Animal Lords of the Beastlands.

Heck, Faiths and Avatars even says that the totem spirits HAD PORTFOLIOS!

"Malar has also acquired additional human worshipers from the ranks of a few beast cults by slaying their totem spirits and assuming the animal spirits' portfolios as aspects of his own."

This idea that animism isn't allowed to exist as its own religion in FR honestly annoys me. There are multiple examples of animist cultures in FR, who follow tribal deities that are basically just animal spirits. And these spirits had divine servants.

"Most Forgotten Realms campaign setting beast cults, such as the numerous Uthgardt beast cults, are served by shamans." - Faiths and Avatars. Even if you make the case of '2e shamans are just 3e clerics', that still says that divine characters can worship totem spirits just fine.

Spirit shamans (and Shamans) get their spells from spirits. Because spirits are gods. They are worshiped, they are given offerings. Now, in some cases the spells might ultimately be coming from a greater deity, I doubt this is the norm. Even in the case of Malar feeding spells through these spirits, it's important to note that he was not always in this position and only really started doing it after ToT. Prior to that, these gods were their own entities. Entities with portfolios, served by divine spellcasters like shamans.

As for the actual lore of SS and Shamans in FR: https://web.archive.org/web/20161031210 ... c/20070918

"Spirit shamans in Rashemen are divided into two contingents. The first is a section of Hathrans -- the exclusively female divine spellcasters of the land. These Hathrans commune solely with spirits, leaving communion with deities to the other casters."

And for the OA Shaman, this is another class that very explicitly gets its spells from spirits.

"Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them as gifts from the many spirits (nature spirits, animal spirits, ancestor spirits, and others) with whom the shaman deals. Each shaman must choose a time at which he must spend an hour each day in quiet conversation with the spirits to regain his daily allotment of spells..."

"Spirits, Domains, and Domain Spells:
Choose two domains for your shaman. Each domain represents an individual spirit with which you have a special relationship-a spirit of the dead (usually one of your ancestors), an animal spirit, or a nature spirit."

The prime example of a Spirit Shaman is, of course, Rashemen. It is a place which is primal enough that spirits exist in that mostly untouched by civilisation land. They are practically everywhere, bound to certain locations, and those are the spirits that the witches of Rashemen work with- both good and bad. But the moment they step outside, these benefits of the spirits are gone. Boom. Null. You still receive your spells if you're a wizard witch or a cleric witch, but you lose all benefits of spirits working with you. These spirits are present nowhere else but Rashemen.

Shaman and spirit shaman spells and abilities work outside of Rashemen. Active, waking, wandering spirits of the land, telthors, do not exist outside of Rashemen, but that does not mean that spirit-based classes do not exist outside of Rashemen. The lore supporting that has already been discussed above, both in the Eastern Classes in FR article and in Faiths and Avatars. Shamans dealing with spirits can deal with spirits anywhere, not just Rashemen. Indeed, fey and elementals are spirits, and fey and elementals are everywhere. What IS the case is that a spirit separate from its place of origin dies. That does not mean that Rashemen is the only place with such spirits, only that those who serve Rashemi spirits cannot bring their Rashemi spirits with them when they go to other lands.

"Shamans might also be found outside of Kara-Tur among the Uthgardt barbarians who worship totems of animals and magical beasts. Other naturalistic and animistic cultures may also possess a form of shamanism. Whether this is shamanic tradition or a spirit shamanic tradition varies depending on dogma and philosophy (see below)."

Shamans should not be confused with spirit shamans. The former are limited to less civilized populations of Kara-Tur (and occasionally tribal populations of the Realms). The latter are more common among spirit folk of both Kara-Tur and the Realms, the continent of Osse, and the Witches of Rashemen. Both groups hold many similarities, but Eastern shamans tend to be more focused on community and ancestors than those of the West. Western spirit shamans are more focused on the individual's spirit quest than any sort of relationship between ancestors and community.

So no. Our ruling is the most logical and setting-plausible solution in accordance with the server's setting. The theme of the class isn't being a shaman working with dark forces. It is working with spirits of nature, specifically and only.

Spirits can be good or evil. Light of dark. They can be incorporeal undead. There are spirit ghouls, spirit zombies, spirits of greed, spirits of heresy, spirits of traumatic death, spirits of cold, and yes, even outsider spirits, spirits from good or fiendish planes (and this is all coming from creatures in Oriental Adventures, which, as Complete Divine says, are the kinds of things a spirit shaman deals with). Spirit is a subtype, not a racial type, it can apply to elementals, fey, undead, humanoids, outsiders, etc. So why can a shaman not worship the gods of the dead? Or the gods of love, greed, darkness, or any other thing of which spirits can exist for? That is the thing with animism - everything has a soul, not just trees, rivers, and animals. And on fiends, heck, Blue Bear, one of the beast totem spirits (which, as we discussed above, had portfolios) consumed by Malar, was noted as having been corrupted by pervasive contact with lower planar beings.

Druids are exclusively bound to nature deities because their focus is specifically on wild nature. But rangers and shamans are closer to civilization, they have more reason follow deities of a broader understanding of the world. In Rashemen, Mystra is one of the three gods, I see no reason why spirit shamans of Rashemen would be precluded from serving Mystra. A shaman of a northern tribe might serve Tempus, with a focus on spirits of war, honor, and valor. And don't give me the 'well 2e shamans are actually just clerics' remark. That's ignoring that cleric and shaman are entirely different classes and roles with entirely different focuses. The focus of shamans is on the spirit world. If a 3e "shaman" is given the cleric class, then they are a shaman in name only, and certainly have nothing in common with the 2e shaman, as what defines a 2e shaman is its work with spirits. 2e shamans, even if they are priests of a deity, are still focused on spirits, and are closest to the OA Shaman class in 3e, of which both it and spirit shaman are both considered types of shamans as might be had in tribal societies.

But in either case, I do feel that if rangers are allowed to serve any deity, then so too should shamans.

Also, honestly? Druids being open to Fury gods at all feels wrong to me. The nature of what a druid is and what a Fury is are opposites. Fury dogma in Faiths and Avatars outright calls on their worshipers to oppose and combat druids.

[Steve]

Some spirits were diminutive in size and might—often called upon for aid by travelers in wilderness―while others were venerated as semi-divine beings or even gods unto themselves.

Footnotes can be found here: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Nature_spirit

[cosmic ray]

I forgot about that line in F&P which says that about rangers, but earlier in the very same book, it says that any deity can sponsor ranger magic. As I told DM Ghost on discord earlier today, this wouldn't be D&D if for every statement there were not another statement directly contradicting it. )))))))

I didn't want to serve dinner for Lawrence Limburger with this thread though.

[GholaMan]

Ok then.

I am picking this gauntlet up.

Faiths and Pantheons, page 90:


Druids and rangers are required to pick one of those deities. If you want to throw the argument of rangers not being restricted and that it's somehow hypocritical of us then, kindly, take that up with the DM Team that allowed it over 6 years ago. We are not the same people.

On the topic of Spirit Shamans, however, there are several things you have to consider. No matter how you look at it, bite it, season it, cook it or want for it to be different, it is like THIS:










Complete Divine flat-out says their role is very much the same as Druid. They combine ancestor worship WITH animal and nature worship. They revere nature itself and the unity between the spiritual and natural world.

Do you know what it does not mention? Demons. Devils. Elder Evils. Gods other than of nature. But let's come back to Forgotten Realms. Divine Magic comes strictly from Deities in our setting. Nature magic comes strictly from the gods of nature. Random spirits, whatever they are, are unable to grant any powers in Forgotten Realms other than slaying you with their own magic.

...Except for Rashemen. Yeah sure, Hathran and Duthran. That exists. Spiritual world exists, too.

But, in fact, I can make an argument that it exists only there and nowhere else. In fact, I can make a very valid argument that Spirit Shaman shouldn't exist outside of Rashemen. Here's why:



The prime example of a Spirit Shaman is, of course, Rashemen. It is a place which is primal enough that spirits exist in that mostly untouched by civilisation land. They are practically everywhere, bound to certain locations, and those are the spirits that the witches of Rashemen work with- both good and bad. But the moment they step outside, these benefits of the spirits are gone. Boom. Null. You still receive your spells if you're a wizard witch or a cleric witch, but you lose all benefits of spirits working with you. These spirits are present nowhere else but Rashemen.

So no. Our ruling is the most logical and setting-plausible solution in accordance with the server's setting. The theme of the class isn't being a shaman working with dark forces. It is working with spirits of nature, specifically and only.

Hey Soulcatcher you are mixing your source material, complete divine is not Faerun, its Greyhawk. So when complete divine states that spirit shaman cast much in the same way druids do, what exactly does that mean in the setting you used a sourcebook? Well according to pg33 of the 3.5 phb, which again is set in Greyhawk not in Faerun states.

Religion: A druid reveres nature above all. She gains her magical
power either from the force of nature itself or from a nature deity.
The typical druid pursues a mystic spirituality of transcendent union
with nature rather than devoting herself to a divine entity. Still,
some druids revere or at least respect either Obad-Hai (god of
nature) or Ehlonna (goddess of the woodlands).

So when complete divine states that spirit shaman cast much in the same way a druid does, though they get their spells from powerful spirits of nature. The book isn't talking about them worshiping a god at all, because in Greyhawk you don't need to worship a deity to cast divine spells. It makes it quite clear when you read the entire entry of spirit shaman under the religion description. It becomes a lot less contradictory and confusing once you accept the fact that complete divine is for Greyhawk.

Religion: A spirit shaman reveres the essence of religion
more than the practice. She gains her magical powers from
the spirits that inhabit all things, living and dead, animate
and inanimate. She combines ancestral worship with animal
and nature worship. The typical spirit shaman, like a druid,
pursues a mystic spirituality of transcendent union with
nature rather than devoting herself to a divine entity. Still,
some spirit shamans give honor to deities of nature such as
either Obad-Hai (god of nature) or Ehlonna (goddess of the
woodlands).

So the above statement really does fit into Greyhawk once you consider the fact that in Greyhawk you don't need to worship a god in order to cast divine spells, its even true as a cleric. In Faerun however all divine magic must come from worship of a deity, that is true even for spirit shaman. Which yes in 2ed both spirit shaman and druid were specialty priests, but unlike druid 2ed spirit shaman were not restricted to a particular deity. Spirit Shaman were originally a Faerun specific class, as in ONLY in faerun would you find a spirit shaman. Spirit shaman got an entire book just for themselves, so its worth discussing what the Faerun lore states about them. https://sggamma2.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/shaman.pdf

Page 7 of the 2ed shaman states under General Information.
The Shaman Class belongs to the priest group featured in the players handbook. They are specialty priests but are unlike most other specialty priests in the game. Shamans do not serve a deity or a pantheon of deities. Instead, they act as a bridge between the prime material plane and the unseen spirit world. Differant shaman types have different approaches to this.

Huh that sure is wierd. Anyway, here is a link to a pdf of the 2ed shaman book. https://sggamma2.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/shaman.pdf

[Rhifox]

Spirit shaman got an entire book just for themselves, so its worth discussing what the Faerun lore states about them. https://sggamma2.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/shaman.pdf

This sourcebook is awesome, haven't seen it before.

Though as far as I can tell, it is not a Forgotten Realms book. And it's not specifically about spirit shaman (just shaman classes in general).

[GholaMan]

Clerics at the time were also a subclass of priest as were monks, 3.5 all the subclasses were mostly made into their own class. Spirit Shaman was just Shaman, and still mechanically weaker than the other priest subclasses lmao.