Guild Stagnation

[Rask]

It's not just new players that find making connections difficult...

Bar RP only goes so far.

It feels like these days nobody wants to leave their club houses or cliques. Every time in the evening over the past few weeeks I have logged in I can play for around 2 hours and not run into a single other player to interact with even though there are 40+ online at the time. Camp fire RP is completely non existent now, most people are hidden location on scry so I have no clue where it is people are hanging out. The ones that aren't hidden are behind locked doors in a guild hall.

When I see new players complaining about not interacting I believe its these issues they are speaking of, and I also experience them. It's the primary reason I have been finding other things to do and other games to play these days. I was hoping when I moved away from DMing that I could use the time to reconnect with the playerbase as a player for a while but I have found it nearly impossible to do so outside of tavern RP. It just isn't particularly compelling over time. It's pretty hard to make friends when everyone is intentionally hiding themselves from the rest of the playerbase or putting intentional barriers to interaction outside their immediate guild or friend circle or only showing up publicly if an event is involved.

It's even harder for those of us who dont generally like to participate in guilds because of the exact reasons I mention (Too cliquey).

Just my 2 cents and observations.

[Ithilan]

Its a consequence of the world not feeling dynamic at all, rather things are on rails and people sit in their guild halls waiting for their scheduled events and tailor made fan fictions.

Ill second what I said on page two, spread the love.. interact with the world and the players in it. Scheduled events have always been a thing, but its largely the solitary procedure now and people are generally told to make requests to engage in RP with the team.

A consequence sadly has been stagnation of player based RP too I find and the slow decline and death of factions and player motivations alike.

[Almarea90]

What can be done to partly address this issue is to have a point of contact available for a certain guild always (or as much as possible) present in those parts of the guild that can be accessed by everyone, with the location in sight. This way people who wish to engage with that guild can do so and at the same time the guild doesn't give the idea of being locked behind doors or willingly put walls between them and other players.
Knowing there is always someone available at certain time also doesn't relay too much on scheduled RP, at least this is what we do in Candlekeep. I am usually the point of contact and when I'm not there, Tiawyn takes over.

The problem of factions or individuals being reclusive might also be exacerbated by Time of Trouble, as magic is unreliable and it is possible that some roleplay not feeling safe outside of town and moving around far less.

[Ghost]

A player who (as far as I am aware) doesn't play here anymore, made a specific effort to be approachable in RP as well as create RP in Baldur's Gate interior. She would post on the forums something along the lines of every Wednesday at 20.00 GMT her character would hang out at the Elfsong Tavern patio. Just as an example, I don't remember her exact times. She encouraged others to do the same. And for several months the RP around that patio grew. Characters got to make new connections and hear about the latest in-character news and rumours and so on.

Yes, that is effectively similar to "campfire RP", which I realise not everyone are fond of. But making these connections is one of the best ways to get involved in ongoing plots.

For the DM team, scheduled events are usually much easier to manage and perform. And the vast majority of DMs in my experience prefer to DM for relatively small groups (6 is usually the magic number, though there's always some leeway) as it gives the DM time to react to the individual players involved. That doesn't mean we prefer to DM for guilds specifically. In fact a lot of my events have been relatively loose groups. It's more fun for the individual players, as they get more individual attention, and it's more fun for the DM, as larger groups tend to be extremely stressful. Anecdotally I can also say that it very often makes the RP deeper and more immersive.

The reason we keep saying "send in requests" is because of somewhat of a shift in the DM team culture from what many veterans may be used to. In the past, most plots often tended to be largely reactive on the part of the players. That lead to a lot of players (and indeed some DMs) feeling like they had no impact on the world - they could only ever react to the catastrophes and get through them. Now, instead, the DM team is very much open to players being proactive and trying to make their mark on the world. Indeed we want to encourage players and guilds to be proactive. Be ambitious.

That said, sometimes a request from a guild can be one where the guild just asks "give us something to react to". Then if a DM takes it on, it's pretty much up to the DMs creativity, and that can be interesting too. But it is much easier to give attention to someone who attracts it. If you want to hitchhike, you're more likely to catch a ride if you wave to passing cars than if you just walk along the road.

[Rask]

A player who (as far as I am aware) doesn't play here anymore, made a specific effort to be approachable in RP as well as create RP in Baldur's Gate interior. She would post on the forums something along the lines of every Wednesday at 20.00 GMT her character would hang out at the Elfsong Tavern patio. Just as an example, I don't remember her exact times. She encouraged others to do the same. And for several months the RP around that patio grew. Characters got to make new connections and hear about the latest in-character news and rumours and so on.

Yes, that is effectively similar to "campfire RP", which I realise not everyone are fond of. But making these connections is one of the best ways to get involved in ongoing plots.

For the DM team, scheduled events are usually much easier to manage and perform. And the vast majority of DMs in my experience prefer to DM for relatively small groups (6 is usually the magic number, though there's always some leeway) as it gives the DM time to react to the individual players involved. That doesn't mean we prefer to DM for guilds specifically. In fact a lot of my events have been relatively loose groups. It's more fun for the individual players, as they get more individual attention, and it's more fun for the DM, as larger groups tend to be extremely stressful. Anecdotally I can also say that it very often makes the RP deeper and more immersive.

The reason we keep saying "send in requests" is because of somewhat of a shift in the DM team culture from what many veterans may be used to. In the past, most plots often tended to be largely reactive on the part of the players. That lead to a lot of players (and indeed some DMs) feeling like they had no impact on the world - they could only ever react to the catastrophes and get through them. Now, instead, the DM team is very much open to players being proactive and trying to make their mark on the world. Indeed we want to encourage players and guilds to be proactive. Be ambitious.

That said, sometimes a request from a guild can be one where the guild just asks "give us something to react to". Then if a DM takes it on, it's pretty much up to the DMs creativity, and that can be interesting too. But it is much easier to give attention to someone who attracts it. If you want to hitchhike, you're more likely to catch a ride if you wave to passing cars than if you just walk along the road.

I agree with basically everything here, and the aforementioned posting is probably a decent idea in of itself for getting attention of those who visit the forums. Sel is a good example of exactly this and reviving the RP in Roaringshore, which is actually the only RP i've been involved in since leaving the DM team as its the only one that is easily accessible these days. It is fun, but it isn't a great substitute as the only RP one engages in.

I do have to say though that as good as it is to push the "send in requests" I think that a shift of making sending requests be the most important thing to do to get involved also has the issue of, as Ithilan said, creating a world which ends up being a fan-fiction like narrative involving only those with the most free time on hand and the biggest drive to get attention. It can also have the aside effect of stifling DM creativity in my experience. Sometimes (at least this was how it was for me.) one wanted to create a story with no player or group in mind, and simply drop it on the world. It didnt need to be world-changing or earth shattering, but just something to react in real time to what was going on in that very moment on the server with whom ever was around. Or a sudden event or small catastrophe, unplanned and out of nowhere. I don't think everything needs to planned and scheduled always, and a balance should be struck between the two.

Requests are important, but so is making the world feel alive and reactive on its own. If everything is always driven by those who are seeking the most attention we end up alienating newer players or those who may not always feel comfortable sending in requests all the time or arent involved currently with any of the main circles, guilds, or groups.

Though it is worth recognizing time zones are also an issue still, most of the DM team is still concentrated within a single group of time zones. I was the only DM in my time zone, and it seems that now that I have left it is back to mostly zero again. I have only myself to blame though

[Ghost]

Oh, you misunderstand my point. There are still things going on that are creativity from the DMs. Some DMs prefer that still. There's also a lot of times theres a mix, where the players request something, but it's mostly sort of vague and the DM who picks it up has some thematics to work with to be creative.

I find both as a musician and a DM that limitations breed creativity. Sure, it can be fun to paint on a huge white wall, but sometimes it is the smaller, and a limited set of colours canvas that gives you inspiration. Thematics in DMing work similarly.

[Rask]

Oh, you misunderstand my point. There are still things going on that are creativity from the DMs. Some DMs prefer that still. There's also a lot of times theres a mix, where the players request something, but it's mostly sort of vague and the DM who picks it up has some thematics to work with to be creative.

I find both as a musician and a DM that limitations breed creativity. Sure, it can be fun to paint on a huge white wall, but sometimes it is the smaller, and a limited set of colours canvas that gives you inspiration. Thematics in DMing work similarly.

This is really well said

[selhan]

My one and ONLY time I pressed that "SEND DM A REQUEST" Button was to ask ..."Could there be some fix in the Broken Goblet, and I noted the activity in the Goblet as the obvious means of profitable income that could be merits to have the fix get done."

That is the one and only time I ever pushed that button. I never ever ever ever ever EEEEEEVVVVVEEEERRRR in my entire BGTSCC ask for anything to a DM Team as far as any sort, any means of personal gain for my own rp. Thats just me. On this library of a forum, some of my deeds would be posted. On the Goblet Thread from time to time I may throw in little old memories here and there of my deeds, but the intention is to reveal a hint of Sel's rp who many keeps telling me he's too mysterious. AND to simply show the Dms "Yes this tavern is still active". Cause I had to show proof of activity in order to get any fix done within there. For it is a server establishment, not something I myself made in the toolset.

I choose to refuse any Private thread, because the stuff in the Goblet is for everybody else. I merely enjoy seeing rp that's more wholesome come and go and not 99.9% all about some pc's backstory or how good they write. Its why I myself dislike Camp fire RP. When I approach the Camp Fire I wanted to greet a friend or a familiar face or try to get a party going or expecting rp to go something like ..

"Hails travelers, mind If I get to share your fire?...So what's the words on the roads these days?" ((Trying to get the rumors ic)) and hope to get either a " Aint heard nuffin stranger, tis a quiet road as dead as a corpse if it can stay dead." Or a " Bloody city up on the security, check points after check points shakin everyone down going in and out".

NOT

Rp that pushes to "I am the almighty blah blah blah from the land of pinktoes and mistletoes, Im the professional magical whoopy doo and what stands before you is the ALL Honorable blah blah." *An yet they forgot to even tell their name...*

Like seriously if I wanted to know all about your PC's beginning past, present and future in character I will simply ask over time IF I'm intrigued enough or have reason too. Dont throw it at me and try to shove it down my throat. If Im interested OOC of your creativity I will go check the forums Character Bios or send you a tell. I ain't come to the camp fire to merely hear a person boast of the land of make believe backstory. I came to the camp fire because I want to hear "What's GOING on Today! in game" Or "Yesterday" "Or what every day I didn't happen to log in!" BUT since it became the spot of *Watch my RP and I show you how lore smart, or how good of a writer I am* ...I simply walk pass the campsite with barely even any attention more than a glance. I rather bump into someone on the roads or walk in a scene were their fighting a mob or seeking directions or help with something. I myself don't make things up just to type something. IF I seen a mugger then I saw a mugger, If I seen a god, then I seen a ((DM play a god)). Unless my pc purposely wants to cause ill intent to your pc, then I will say, "Oh theres a wealthy guy at the top of Mount Spear willing to pass out a lot of free magical items. Go on head up there its a real cake walk."

Now due to SOME Rp, and IF I see an DM online and their not busy, I might ask .."could I ask you to throw in a little this and a little of that" just to make people feel the realness of things, if I cant do it myself, if a DM wants to come over listen to whats going on and then throw down something for cause and effect, then hey its all welcomed. DM Summers and DM Sparty did those alot. And I as a player would help in and play support. And who ever that player is selling books in the auction with the List of quest as a guide to find work , hats off to you , well done there its a nice touch.

DM's needs players help too to push forth events to certain directions, or help build some depth into the events. Im level 30, I like my gear, could be nice to have a little better but Im content until they present themselves in those cursed chests.

The Goblet is not a faction. Its a tavern open to the public if Sel the bartender is not there, so what, NPC Pike sales drinks too, he just wont reply well to make you feel like you really came into a seedy tavern. Volstagg became a hired bouncer cause he was interested in it and pursued it. Folks can ask him for a drink but likely he gonna tell you to pike off and give you a mean glare lol. But if a player can birth fruit to such the activity there, then others can do it too. Im currently hiring a courier in game so I can help spread things IC up and down the Coast. I dont want to look at the Forums for rumors I myself want to hear them in game. I resort to forum rumors when I got no other means too.

It just take some effort from people to simply dedicate some time and energy to OUR game community. And not just themselves. For the people who do has the time, I urge them dont let up. There will be times no one comes around, there will be times no content is had. But if you let up , you never know what you might miss. Dont think the rp that goes on in the Goblet aint talking about Amos in prison, the Elder Circles complaint, the doings of Bladestones and the offer of Asylums, the standing war with Zhents and the Lords Alliance nor the new tavern in Beregost being built, nor the Lucky coins delicious foods, or the dedicated patrols of the Silver Rose, or the questionable doings of the Underdark races. Or the Whitewoods doings. I ...rp...about...it...ALL. BGTSCC IS a community we all are part of that community.

[zhazz]

It feels like these days nobody wants to leave their club houses or cliques. Every time in the evening over the past few weeeks I have logged in I can play for around 2 hours and not run into a single other player to interact with even though there are 40+ online at the time. Camp fire RP is completely non existent now, most people are hidden location on scry so I have no clue where it is people are hanging out. The ones that aren't hidden are behind locked doors in a guild hall.

It is essentially a different side/angle of a diverse player base forming into groups where they are comfortable. Nothing wrong with that, really. It's what a community is after all. People with shared values and ideals goals living/working together.

I posted about this previously, in another thread, and will quote the relevant parts here.

What we are missing on the server, which we can never have, is a Player-to-Player Session Zero. The player-base isn't static. It changes year-to-year, if not more often than that. Because of this, any agreement we make today between players, on what we want to experience on the server and how we want to experience it, is going to be invalidated the moment a new or returning player joins. It becomes a never-ending process of trying to establish expectations between players, meaning it is never done, and therefore is impossible to establish.

What happens instead is that cliques are formed. Small groups within the server, where we know the preferences and expectations of those within the group, and thus feel comfortable playing with them. A lot of players complain about this, because they feel left out or shunned from certain groups, despite wanting to become part of it. To this there is no solution. As humans we are predisposed to be wary of strangers seeking entry into our tight-knit community. Trust needs to be established first, which is often made more difficult due to prior bad experiences of including someone new. Most often what is required is for someone within the group to vouch for the newcomer — usually through pre-established relations (friends or family).

Guilds and factions themselves are also cliques. However, unlike natural groups formed between players, a guild or faction is formed through aspiration towards a shared goal, story, or interest. A guild or faction is a formalised group within the group. Someone has set aside the time and effort to formalise what the goals and interests of the group are, and created a list of requirements for entry. A natural group is like a group of friends playing basket ball in their spare time after school, while a guild or faction is the basket ball team at school. One is formalised, the other is not.

[Tekill]

The players change too much and we all fear strangers?
I don't buy it zhazz.
You might be half right. But for every example you can find to prove your statements, there are at least as many examples to prove them wrong.
It's cynical and defeatist.
If the community is to be organized based on cliques the original post asks how do we bridge the devide between these cliques and new players.

I recommend some leadership. You are smart. I bet you can create a list of ideas to help progress the concept of inclusivity of new players.
There are dms guilds and players who would be happy to take part in participating in such initiatives.

[ShineDown]

The players change too much and we all fear strangers?
I don't buy it zhazz.
You might be half right. But for every example you can find to prove your statements, there are at least as many examples to prove them wrong.
It's cynical and defeatist.
If the community is to be organized based on cliques the original post asks how do we bridge the devide between these cliques and new players.

I recommend some leadership. You are smart. I bet you can create a list of ideas to help progress the concept of inclusivity of new players.
There are dms guilds and players who would be happy to take part in participating in such initiatives.

I'd say this about sums it up. You'll run into some that feel like they go out of the way to exclude, you'll run into some that beg to include you. If you're in a guild, talk to people. If you're not and you want in one, just talk. OOC/ IC, forum, discord, all the options you can think of.

[calvinus]

Will say that the Everwatch are EAGER for new members and always (please reach out IC/OOC on the forums or in game or appropriately on Discord), the issue is there needs to be an appropriate lawful/non-evil RP fit (at least if known IC, you could be secretly evil or chaotic of course and we've RPed through that over the years too haha) given it's a Helmite mercenary company under the Helmite Church. We are similarly EAGER for RP avenues with all toons and really we've done some awesome RP over the years with plenty of evil and chaotic toons also, just be prepared for it to be more conflicting RP and maybe some paladins nagging you to redeem IC haha.

Some of the most fun RP ever had also is just wandering around in the wilds on patrol or having a run in as such. So please all feel free to reach out on that as well.

[Rask]

The players change too much and we all fear strangers?
I don't buy it zhazz.
You might be half right. But for every example you can find to prove your statements, there are at least as many examples to prove them wrong.
It's cynical and defeatist.
If the community is to be organized based on cliques the original post asks how do we bridge the devide between these cliques and new players.

I recommend some leadership. You are smart. I bet you can create a list of ideas to help progress the concept of inclusivity of new players.
There are dms guilds and players who would be happy to take part in participating in such initiatives.

I'd say this about sums it up. You'll run into some that feel like they go out of the way to exclude, you'll run into some that beg to include you. If you're in a guild, talk to people. If you're not and you want in one, just talk. OOC/ IC, forum, discord, all the options you can think of.

I agree with this too.

I dont think the cliques in general are even intentionally exclusionary in many cases. I think its just a habit formed over time, especially when there was once a lot of spy RP, and being behind locked doors at all times was just sort of how meetings were done. Personally I never cared if I was being spied on, it made things more fun if there was a chance for conflict.

But when these characters are out in the open I dont find (most) of their players to be particularly exclusionary, quite the opposite. The issue is just that they aren't out in the open very often anymore.

[Steve]

The issue is just that they aren't out in the open very often anymore.

I've only ever played Characters who are "out in the open," even when I had a Zhent character. It is and always has been my MO to describe and show the role-play I'm investing in, so that others can insert themselves in it as well, should they find interest or whatever.

If you're on BGTSCC and not openly storybuilding with others, it will be a short experience (because just grinding and reaching 30 is boring—once you do it, repeating it is awful).

All guilds/factions only survive if there is a player that is willing to put in the extra—and consistent—"work." That means the organization, the reports, the posts, inventing stories, getting IG meetings going, reaching out to others, etc etc. If a guild loses that Player, then usually the guild/faction will die off, unless another comes along with the same or equal interest and dedication.

But most players of this type, willing to put in the extra energy it takes to be a guild/faction presence of BGTSCC, are a type that also seek results. If at any point said player sees that their efforts will not give fair return, it's only a New York minute before they leave.

The only exclusion that goes on on BGTSCC, imho, is when one player or group decides another player is the enemy, which is an OOC issue.

[Tantive]

We used to just put ourselves in parry mode and walk along a lower level dungeon with the person that was looking to join the Order. They got RP xp and the dungeon xp while we slowly moved along through our loop and arrived back at the city afterwards. It was fun for all. ((I do miss being able to actually collect at least a little bit of loot during those trips to fund the small donation of potions and heal kits to them, but that is a whole other topic.))

I think with Aid Another, Attacks/Armor Class can let you do a bit more then be a rp prop. Then there's grappling(incapacitate) and other such mechanics, maybe disarm? That's one way to feel less of a furniture piece for roleplay in level dispartities.

Then there's other control effects when it comes to magic, which makes things easier.

Having alts to slowly adventure with is fine too, just make sure it's not just a throwaway character, and you'de like to experiment with it at level 30. A niche other then your main. Set some helpful perimeters for yourself so you don't confuse one roleplay to another. Maybe even a log checker.

I like choosing a niche of a particular class/race/religion, and make their personalities differ much from the other characters as a way to explore. It lets me lean a bit more extreme into a certain area opposed to any other characters, and let the chips roll with more risk.

---

This is my take of the matter.

As you've grown as a particular character/player, you are very much a portal to many things from lore(+serverlore) to activities and connections and opportunities where characters(and players) can come and go to. Your regularity at a particular point can serve as a point of interest for returned visits, but if you do not frequent some directed excursions outside, nobody gets to know about you nor will you seed interest in your particular (experienced) area.

So you have to show an approachable face from time to time, even if it is making a point how rare a visit somewhere is. So it is a question of making yourself available for opportunity (passively) plus making the opportunity happen (actively).

Your characters which may have a very cultural/racial impact to a particular area, or a factional one. So if you setup events, you have to consider a moment just what kind of situation are you creating? Is it something that is very poignant to you, your direct ic friends, to your specific area (cultural/racial/factional), or is it also something that crosses those the boundries and you need to bring more people in, or are you inviting possible antagonists with your ideas too (which can be welcome).

You can create an initiative, and hope other people to respond. At any level.

You can also help forward other people to happenings by being a source of rumour (ingame and forum) that lets people know whats going on. If you happen to mention something which lets other people latch onto for something of interest to them, that is also a way to be helpful directly. I think it would also be worthwhile to kind of make note in your postings (although it doesn't need to be so overtly), what is your creative written accounting of a situation, and what you believe has become something sharable to the world that others can become aware of.


It is hard to know how persistent other people are when moving things along, unless you see the requests and pms DM side to gain a sense of it, but in general it does help to choose to become a prime mover/initiator that makes it easier for other people to join in, and see how to comes together. And if you don't know how, or don't have the courage yet to do so, talk with someone who's doing them regularly to get their sense of the matter.

But starting something which is bigger then you can chew, and requires more people to get into it, is a good way to see more people come together.