The State of Leveling

[Eliasz_Kowalski]

More than anything BG lacks content. We have updated vistas to look upon and little in the way for something for the character to do.

Pretty much this. As an average player who spends most of his time in the grim darkness of present where there is only grind, alone or with an occasional PC never to be seen again, I've always thought that the server is more of a framework for DM-led events first and player-led ones second. Unless you get to enjoy those on a regular basis, you are just left to grind lifeless dungeons Ragnarok Online-style with mobs that constantly spawn on top of your head and hoarding tons of worthless loot for the merchant. Obviously, this experience stands as far from what DnD adventures are supposed to be as it gets. And as it was pointed out already, by the time you see that dungeon the tenth time or so, you don't really feel like squeezing any RP for it out of yourself. I've actually had more fun with whatever RP I could come up with in peaceful locations than while raiding. And considering that most average players are eager to engage in absolutely anything you throw at them, most feel the same, I guess, and are happy to participate in literally anything that'll distract them from mind-numbing grind. But then again, you can't expect everyone to be creative with just chat-based RP and come up with engaging stories on the spot. More than that, most newcomers don't even realise that the server is more of a framework for chat- and forum-based RP with DM-led events than an actual game with content. And then it essentially just boils down to chatting by the fire about this and that just to squeeze some RP exp out of it and spare yourself the horror of killing another four hundred and fifty seven orcs to level up for whooping 8HP, +1AB, and a spell slot.

As for me, I have no idea how you people even get to level 30 without regular DM-led events with them showering you with XP for participating. I've had a couple of characters over the year and if I try to level up quickly, already by level 12-15 I usually have severe PTSD from slaughtering hundreds upon hundreds of orcs and gnolls and the very thought of having to gut several hundred more mobs to level up makes me want to just close the game and never open it again. So I try no to think about it. But then I think about it a lot anyway. I mostly level up my characters to the point where I get some in-game tools I find useful for RP, like summons, certain spells or shapeshifter forms, or just power level enough for PvP at low levels, again, for RP reasons. And then I never go grinding again. I've literally spent the past year logging in every now and then on my main char just to mess with players at the Inn with my silly Dwarven ballads and some RP stunts without stepping into a dungeon ever again.

I'm not sure if it works differently for players that are the backbone of the server, are active on Discord and forums, and get to enjoy regular DM-led events, but unless you a part of that inner circle, you won't ever see anything apart from the grindfest. For instance, I've always wondered why those radiant quests you see sometimes aren't more of a thing just to give players at least something to build their adventures around in dungeons and wilderness. But then again, I guess this old-arse engine leaves much to be desired when it comes to coding opportunities. With all that being said, no wonder most players who don't get to see the world come to life in DM-led events don't stick around. There's just not much to do apart from committing war crimes on the local monster population and drinking yourself to death at the Inn just to forget what your eyes have seen.

[Lockonnow]

It is only old player that winny the new one that have join that is new play only feel old players last fun becost their have been here for to long

[Young Werther]

I've always thought it would be better if quests were once per a character's mortal life instead of per a week. Higher payout and maybe just more quests for more areas. Not sure if implementing that is feasible. I just can't with the quests but it's truly the best way to level past 20.

[Blackman D]

as someone who has had about 7 or so level 30s gained from lvl 1, the grind is definitely not something i can get back into and even when i have jumped in to hang out and end up leveling with people or solo the interest dies in minutes because compared to other games it is a very obnoxious and tedious thing to do here

part of that is probably the lack of crafting to be able to make custom gear that actually fits your character and to make things much easier, but there is always too much control on crafting so it never gets far in its attempts to be added

that other thing that sucks is the xp penalty at 21, or mid 19 for +2 ecl, seeing single digit xp gain for "epic" content is balls

id rp still tho sure, but got nothing to rp either

i be busy anyway so doesnt matter that much but yea... leveling here sucks

[Aspect of Sorrow]

It is only old player that winny the new one that have join that is new play only feel old players last fun becost their have been here for to long

[metaquad4]

Make all players level 30 and give all players +3 starter gear.

I'm 100% on board with this. Not only that, when leveling isn't a factor it makes things like permadeath super easy for the player to consider from an OOC perspective. Which DOES help the narrative when characters are free to die/leave/retire when their arcs inevitably naturally end. I'd never permadeath right now, and the only reason is I know that I'll have to grind more if I do. Why would I want to subject myself to more grind? An enhanced narrative isn't worth my OOC sanity.

Plus it frees up the areas for better use. Instead of stupid grinding areas A-E, you can have 100% interesting dungeons which primarily reward loot instead of XP (the loot grind IS more interesting than the XP grind).

But hey, grinding is obligatory. Let's keep the grind in - it creates a sense of pride and accomplishment; right?

You'll get more people RPing because less are grinding. And people won't have to grind. That is literally a win-win.

[cosmic ray]

I agree with the OP and others who have been posting here and while it is true that, in ancient times, levelling on BG was worse than now, it is also true that, between then and now, it was a lot better. That's the thing with improving anything: we should compare the thing we want to improve to good things, not bad things.

Anyway, yes, these issues have surely contributed to emptying the server, there can be no doubt about that, but there is more to that equation, specifically the decay of roleplay on BG. Whereas D&D is all about adventure and intrigue, BG has, over the course of time, slowly shifted towards social, more or less upper class, though not always, gala/garden party/pie sales roleplay events - sometimes also introducing a bit of a carebear tone which is at odds with a world filled with tension, danger and conflict. Add to this the fact that, despite the DM to player ratio being the highest it has ever been, DM events are a rarity now. During the ToT period, for instance, the surface players got a whole plot to be part of, whereas the Underdark didn't even see a DM log in. Often lately, it has been due to some dedicated people on player side that roleplay and fun little stories have taken place on BG; it's players, more than DMs, keeping roleplay alive and interesting.

I know I'm going off road a bit here with regards to the thread's topic, but these problems have collectively contributed to making the experience less than satisfactory now than in the past - it's all connected, you see? Fun speedier levelling that doesn't feel like a bloody chore (I know some of you like to get 1xp per kill in one-spawn-per-hour areas, but then again, there are people in real life who derive pleasure from pain), fun dungeons with interesting loot that drops more frequently than once a year, DMs making the world alive and keeping it real and authentic as per the lore of the setting, inter-guild conflict and intrigue etc - this is the stuff of D&D, not five spawns per reset, epic chests giving you 34 gp, socialite galas and the like. NwN2 is on life support now and it needs help to regain some vigour.

[blazerules]

Factually false that only old players complain and new ones dont mind. If anything my experience is that new players hate it more. And I've seen a good many newbies turned off by just how pointless tedious it is.

Its actively damaging to player retention with absolutely no (good) reason ever provided.

Even if there is some good reason theres no doubt in my mind that as things stand it does more harm than good. Especially for ECL races.

Simply because before it was a burning highly radioactive pile of enriched uranium and now it's just a highly radioactive pile of enriched uranium doesnt mean it's good or even not terrible.

New players dont have this comparison. All they often see is tedium.

[The Whistler]

I can't even begin to imagine tackling epic content without my trove of gold and items I've accumulated over the years. That it's seen as acceptable, and even optimal practice to chug elixirs and use items costing millions of gold to overcome the content boggles the mind. New players are absolutely boned.

[ILLY]

I have personally found it extremely dull how if I am not willing to repeat the same dungeon at appropriate level up to a 100 times or more, I just get nowhere in terms of leveling. Levels in of themselves aren't as important as progression and the sense thereof. Simply put, there is no narrative value in doing the same dungeon a hundred times and if you don't- your friends who will are going to leave you behind. As a result of this, when you join events that are geared towards the level average you are going to suffer for not having higher values to cope mechanically.

I have played on a lot of servers and I think only PotM on nwn1 comes close to how dreadfully dull leveling feels here.

Why not do it for the loot?
Why bother with doing high level dungeons for loot when you can just hit up a few containers in the world that will net you as much or more items in less effort and time.

It's better than it was!
That does not mean that it is good or couldn't be better. Life expectancy is generally better today than 100 years ago, doesn't mean we should stop trying to improve things.

Truthfully, I would hope for more avenues of experience-gain and progression that does not involve left-clicking on mobs. That are competitive in terms of progression time with any other way to get there.

[blazerules]

That it's seen as acceptable, and even optimal practice to chug elixirs and use items costing millions of gold to overcome the content boggles the mind.

I mean this is perfectly acceptable.

For boss raids.

Though I don't understand why this would ever be a thing in a normal dungeon that presumably exists for you to have an engaging time and level up. Granted some epic level content isnt that bad.

For a dungeon you're expected to do maybe once or twice such difficulty isnt bad.

Why not do it for the loot?
Why bother with doing high level dungeons for loot when you can just hit up a few containers in the world that will net you as much or more items in less effort and time.

Technically why not do it for the gold, since you can get some uniquely good loot and even dusty tomes with names of great summons. However that's just grind that people playing with an RP focus will not want to engage with.

Doing it for the loot is in my mind the same as doing it for XP. Except worse because technically you can go on forever.

BGTSCC is basically diablo if the loot was half as interesting, the dungeons weren't randomly generated and the combat wasnt that fun. But that's not why we play BGTSCC so thats not really an issue.

[DaloLorn]

I've always thought it would be better if quests were once per a character's mortal life instead of per a week. Higher payout and maybe just more quests for more areas. Not sure if implementing that is feasible. I just can't with the quests but it's truly the best way to level past 20.

RCRs complicate the matter, but otherwise I'd be all for it. As it stands, only the UD quests offer rewards that justify the effort you put into them, and even that mostly only when there's nobody to do anything more interesting with, or when you're in the epic XP pit.

Make all players level 30 and give all players +3 starter gear.

I'm 100% on board with this. Not only that, when leveling isn't a factor it makes things like permadeath super easy for the player to consider from an OOC perspective.

Plus it frees up the areas for better use. Instead of stupid grinding areas A-E, you can have 100% interesting dungeons which primarily reward loot instead of XP (the loot grind IS more interesting than the XP grind).

But hey, grinding is obligatory. Let's keep the grind in - it creates a sense of pride and accomplishment; right?

100% you'll get more RP (less people grinding XP = more people free to RP) and better quality RP (less "lets team up because we both gatta level") if everyone started at 30.

I'm with Steve on this, TBH. Not all of our PCs start at the peak of their potential (despite your best efforts to singlehandedly upend that statistic ), and it is often the path to that peak that makes for the most compelling RP.

Ilhara managed to get some post-30 RP progression. By and large, it was a lucky break every time, and she's still mostly dormant. (Don't get me wrong, though, there are some characters of mine that would have worked out better starting at a higher level, but those are the exception that proves the rule.)

[metaquad4]

I'm with Steve on this, TBH. Not all of our PCs start at the peak of their potential (despite your best efforts to singlehandedly upend that statistic )

You don't have to level fully if you don't want to. Pressing the level up button IS a choice too.

Also, it is worth noting that the leveling pace on BG HAS caused turn-over in the past (and even this year, I know at-least one person who left due to it and more than one persons who complain about it). People won't tell you either (you can't expect that); they'll just be gone.

[DaloLorn]

I'm with Steve on this, TBH. Not all of our PCs start at the peak of their potential (despite your best efforts to singlehandedly upend that statistic )

You don't have to level fully if you don't want to. Pressing the level up button IS a choice too.

Also, it is worth noting that the leveling pace on BG HAS caused turn-over in the past (and even this year, I know at-least one person who left due to it and more than one persons who complain about it). People won't tell you either (you can't expect that); they'll just be gone.

So... strip out the leveling experience, including presumably all the adventure zones tailored to pre-30 adventures... but still pretend there's something left to do before 30? Seems fishy to me.

[ILLY]

I'm with Steve on this, TBH. Not all of our PCs start at the peak of their potential (despite your best efforts to singlehandedly upend that statistic )

You don't have to level fully if you don't want to. Pressing the level up button IS a choice too.

Also, it is worth noting that the leveling pace on BG HAS caused turn-over in the past (and even this year, I know at-least one person who left due to it and more than one persons who complain about it). People won't tell you either (you can't expect that); they'll just be gone.

So... strip out the leveling experience, including presumably all the adventure zones tailored to pre-30 adventures... but still pretend there's something left to do before 30? Seems fishy to me.

If the result of the calculation of stripping out leveling content is that there's nothing left to do, then there's indicative of a much larger problematique on the server than painful grinding. This is supposed to be a roleplay server, grinding to 30 can't be 90% of what makes up roleplay.