The State of Leveling

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I can't even begin to imagine tackling epic content without my trove of gold and items I've accumulated over the years. That it's seen as acceptable, and even optimal practice to chug elixirs and use items costing millions of gold to overcome the content boggles the mind. New players are absolutely boned.

Some of this feels a bit dramatized if I'm being honest. "Dozens of former players have told me in private that they quit because of slow leveling, I can't provide any evidence that's the case but totally trust me on it." We also don't have swaths of new players joining and quitting because the leveling is boring, aside from old players pretending to be new players I think we probably get 3-4 legitimately new people annually and probably 1-2 of them stay for some months or years.

Given RIG's drops, and returning with a clean slate, I didn't have personal trouble being back inside the epics from scratch, but that came on the heels of me knowing what to do. New players don't, and with a cursory check Discord shows 19 results of players inquiring about JEGS for the year 2023. It is completely fair to say BGTSCC has a history of a revolving door of new players that are only around for a very short time, and exit interviews that go back even to the PW's population height in 2018 point out a number of improvements the PW could focus in on, but most of those, at that time, was revolving around integration of the new player to the PW as information was vague for where the player can begin. Today that's been improved, there's NPCs willing to run tours, but that's a scratch on the surface. We could have done better with JEGS merged into the mainline/prod for a more accurate representation of the character build process early on for the player to dip their toes into what interests them most and how the PW can accommodate there. We could have done better with more options for the new player to move from character creation and into their first five levels, not just from a mechanical scope but the more important narrative side too, where faction and guild representation could have been strongly advertised. These are some of the gaps that were cited having been missed but we relied too heavily on the player to weed through thousands of forum threads instead, often directionless for the individual in question. Content that better enables the playerbase more reliably has seemingly always been out of reach for this PW.

Likewise, though Steve is the only one representing them in this thread, we have many players who feel like "all destination, no journey" is a bad scenario to reinforce. I myself also fall into this camp.

I think there's multiple sides to this, on one hand a player having performed their dues in terms of the slog to reach 30 only to find that their build doesn't exactly suit to their desire shouldn't necessarily have to be subjected to the slog to make a minor adjustment. The re-leveling from an RCR standpoint to make some of these adjustments was long cited as an issue by the players from just about every angle, the PvE armies and RPers alike. Suggestions were previously made to help alleviate this by something like a single RCR token for a level 30 character be made available after a certain period of time like six months. This was historically turned down but maybe today is worth reconsidering, especially if the RCR token is made eligible if the character that is RCR'd into meets the same classes, name, alignment, and deity - parameters to help prevent any real RCR abuse.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make the leveling experience more fun, but I see DMs, devs and builders doing their best to make that happen every single day between the introduction of new dungeons and new systems and programs like the new biography rewards.

No one is claiming that someone isn't doing their best, it's that there are elements to improve upon and the recipe for creating the content isn't static. More player engagement and conversation about this helps rather than to repeat a formula already long criticized. Most are offering legitimate critique; it doesn't have to be inferred as a hostile point of view.

Threads like these typically serve as an echo chamber that makes an issue seem far more amplified than it is and even the people in this thread advocating for some kind of change can't actually agree on what the change needs to be.

Concerns are raised, what is the next step staff believes the community should discuss regarding it?

[Endelyon]

"What the staff wants to see the community discuss next" would require a wider staff discussion, I can only speak from my own perspective at the moment. It feels somewhat unreasonable to expect a comprehensive answer within 24 hours of an issue being raised, and I'm not even convinced that the vast majority of players feel this way (though I am convinced that obviously some portion do), but at the moment there's been little time to discuss this staff side except what we can immediately do to alleviate the confusion and time it takes to navigate the new city maps. I've also already floated the suggestion of taking a look at adding some scaling back in, though this will require thought and discussion and won't be done as a knee-jerk decision like the first time I raised exp rates years ago.

Mentioning how hard the staff is working is not an indicator that I read the critique given as hostile, it was only an indication that I'm proud of the effort they're putting in and think in time it will bear fruit. There's no deeper meaning to read into it. Many in this thread have indicated, however, that these decisions were made for no reason and continue to be doubled down on for no reason, which is not a good faith representation of why these decisions were made. Balancing many different visions of what makes a fun server is a difficult challenge and things have always been decided with the best intent.

My subtext was more that if people are going to cite exit interviews they need to be provided, most people I've spoken to in recent years about why they've left the server have focused their complaints on lack of staff engagement and interpersonal drama, so without some kind of tangible evidence otherwise it feels more immediately productive to me to focus on those factors over radical redesigns of the module. It's not that I'm calling anyone a liar about what people told them, but the issues we faced in 2018 are not explicitly representative of the issues we face now.

Not that "faster exp" is a radical redesign, and as mentioned I think we can look towards reaching some compromise on that over the long term. It just won't be because of doomsday claims of population decline and turnover, but because I'm concerned about making a good faith effort to make things fun things for people who are here now. Things that are more radical--like starting everyone at level 30--are just not tangible.

I also don't mind suggestions like "free rebuilds every x months." There are lots of tangible points in this thread I can see working with, and as mentioned my intent was not to stifle the discussion, but steer it away from the idea that our population is intrinsically tied to this one issue because it adds an inappropriate level of emotional charge to things and makes people contributing feel like the very future of the server relies on them acquiescing to this short list of demands.

[blazerules]

Either the journey from 1 - 30 is more important than more players, or people will leave if the leveling process is removed. Not sure about the latter, but I'm skeptical of the former.

I never said it should be removed. If anything I think it being removed is worse than what we have now.

Either the speed needs to be increased or there needs to be enough variety in areas that leveling through the same zone far too many times isnt a requirement. Progressing from one area to another helps a ton in it not feeling as slow or boring.

If the journey is so important then it needs to be made fun. I am strongly against removal of leveling entirely and I do think it would do more harm than good.

I still remember doing xvarts and orcs in some fortress years ago. We even did them when we were far over leveled because stuff "appropriate" to our level was far, far too difficult. And on an XP per Hour basis killing weaker mobs that gave little XP was 2-3 times faster.


I will agree with AoS on the RCR front. While we have jeggs it's still possible to make mistakes and having to live with a bad build or some mistake isnt exactly fun. If anything it's kind if terrifying from my experience and why my first build was just "give me the most optimal thing please". Going through leveling hell again seems redundant.

Not that "faster exp" is a radical redesign, and as mentioned I think we can look towards reaching some compromise on that over the long term. It just won't be because of doomsday claims of population decline and turnover, but because I'm concerned about making a good faith effort to make things fun things for people who are here now.

Personally I think faster XP is a solution but not an ideal one. Though certainly the easiest to implement. Like I mentioned variety is a big issue, ILLY mentioned it to me. And I would agree there. It would be very difficult and time consuming to have more leveling areas no doubt. And I'm not sure if it's worth the time investment unless it's also justified as making the server bigger with more areas? Or something. It would be a lot.

Even just having different areas to go to even if they arent that different is pretty huge just from an IC standpoint of "I'm not raiding this place the 15th time today". But you could also chalk that up to slow leveling.

I wonder if a dual approach of slightly faster leveling and more areas would help there. Having quests that are more worth the time investment could be great too.

Still, I havent leveled in years so I cant say too much on how it is now. Beyond the new players in my Guild.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I have what seems to be quite a different view of things here. For me, and my playstyle, the leveling (though I haven't leveled in about a year and a half, admittedly) was pretty much spot on. I log in for interpersonal RP with other toons/players, not for loot/gold/xp grinding, or for DM events. DM events are nice, but they are icing on the cake.

As for the leveling (again, I haven't leveled for roughly 1.5 years) for me it was way too fast. Admittedly, not nearly as fast as the less than 24 hours on Haven/Sigil, or the less than 3 hours on another server. But still too fast. And all I did was fish and RP, with an occasional trip out to dungeons if I had a good RP reason.

Now, at level 30, I log in to RP with people. I don't head to dungeons unless I have a good RP reason to, or if there's literally nothing else to do due to slow times.

With this being said, I realize that my playstyle does not represent all players. But I will say that I do represent a group of players who think like me. All I can give is anecdotal evidence, but I've had two friends leave the server because the leveling was too fast. One stayed because he loved the danger of being low level in an unfamiliar environment.

Again, this doesn't represent all players. But it does represent some at the very least.

For me, the dungeons and NPCs are not content. They exist, because they exist in lore. They are part of the world, but they are not the world. For me, the most fun is what others call "Fireside RP".

[Tekill]

I just think a better roadmap for how to get farther with role-play needs to be published.

I think a level 30 server would be fun. But I also like levelling. I suggested removing levelling altogether to herd the cats into discussing game mechanics less and more about the real selling feature of BGTSCC- a creative and social outlet.

Its funny (ironic?) that we are participating in a world with nearly unlimited potential yet we still end up doing the same boring crap over and over again.
We are drowning in these nearly infinite possibilities. Each and every one of us are wandering aimlessly in different directions.
How about we narrow down some of these options available to each individual, so as a player base we can actually achieve something.

We need to:
1) incentivize organized group RP and
2) to do so that is inclusive of new players and
3) to do so by not putting too much pressure on the DMs

More Conflict. If two factions come to blows - scheduled a monitored battle - winner take all.
More involvement in the actual political parties of the sword coast and surrounding areas. You should be able to be a Duke!
Rewards for guild recruitment success- big rewards...top shelf prizes.
Scheduled and monitored faction vs faction invasions and attacks.

Any other suggestions?

Oh and one last comment before I start ranting. Stop worrying about peoples feelings so much!!!!
The players and staff are tougher than they think they are!
Trust me, they can handle it. And if not, they will get over it.

We have a solid veteran player base looking for something to do other than levelling- lets put them to work!

[blazerules]

For me, the dungeons and NPCs are not content. They exist, because they exist in lore. They are part of the world, but they are not the world. For me, the most fun is what others call "Fireside RP".

Your playstyle is why I think more zones is more better.

The world is pretty huge and some places like the entire Uldoon Trail are represented with a single map when it could realistically be more. The same can be applied for other areas to make a more gradual and more varied leveling experience without influencing the speed.

I think you can expand on the world and places to kill things while keeping it to IC and reasonable. Decreased PvE difficulty is a big boon that'll no doubt help.

RP is the main thing but nobody can get off it alone. Look at ILLY for example, a new player, if they dont keep to the grind they just get out leveled by their peers and cant adventure together. I mean they technically can but thats not ideal. Perhaps that's a separate issue to look into really. Nerfing XP gain due to level difference isnt helping. Maybe it should only come into effect if someone is level 30? Sure that's somewhat easy to bypass by keeping to 29 but it's a start.

Edit:

"Many in this thread have indicated, however, that these decisions were made for no reason and continue to be doubled down on for no reason, which is not a good faith representation of why these decisions were made."

Yeah my bad there I apologize. I meant it as no good reason in the sense of there is a reason. But it's not a good one, at least from my personal perspective. (My understanding so far has been that the reason it's been kept as is is due to not wanting radical changes that could have players leave. As well as the leveling experience not being seen as bad. Which we are between a rock and a hard place for most changes I think?) It's without a doubt that the team does great work and puts in a lot of time and effort into its decisions. Honestly recent changes have been fantastic and will no doubt keep the trend.

Again though I'm sorry. (At least I think that's directed at me).

[Rain]

I don't think people -deserve- to just be placed at level 30... There is a huge different from allowing people who have already reached level 30 the luxury of not having to do it again, and completely throwing out years of coding, quest work and scripting that devs have put in over the years for the leveling system and the questing system. The level system is completely fine there is no need to increase anything or decrease anything. But I do stand by the thought that after you complete the leveling process players should have the OPTION to not have to go through the process again. Someone made a good point about the pain of messing up a feat or a skill point at epic levels to then have your heart sink thinking about having to go all the way back to level 21 from 30. The same pain for people who level up a character to 30 and realize that their character would be a lot more enjoyable if they were just slightly altered into a different play style.

You can have the best of both worlds and make the leveling process more fun, sure. But at the end of the day players should have the freedom to choose if they want to go through it again. From this thread alone we can see there are players who like and dislike the leveling process... who like and dislike being at level 30... who like and dislike avenues of gathering information (most on the fourms) for help on leveling up and finding a clear path towards getting into the real meat and potatos of the server which is THE RP.

Only one side of the spectrum here that gets a negative from this and it's the people know they have lives, occupations and commitments outside of BGTSCC and their passion for playing on the server is at the later levels when there are more options for interacting with fights and interacting with the world. (Idk about anyone else but I know if I made a level 1 character on the surface or the UD I would be missing out on events due to most events catering towards higher levels. ACTUALLY I don't even know why I brought up the UD those guys are some of the most dedicated players I know WITHOUT a dedicated DM to work with them.)

BGTSCC should value our time better. We don't want to sit here and play the waiting game with everything especially systems that have nothing to do with DM suspervision. Re-Leveling is a joke. Give us the option. I've seen this same thread about this topic for 3 years now...

[Moonsong]

Yeah...Without reading it all i can confirm, what Whistler says. I have a low level alt, for the occassions when i don't have much time to play Tiawyn for deeper RP.

I can also confirm, that leveling even a mere dwarven fighter/ DD has become a PITA. I don't know where half of the low level questst are now. Saying how cool everything is and how much the server wants to support RP and group play doesn't help those who simply can't find any groups. Being a EU player with limited playtimes i have the problem, that there is no groups to be found at my times. So yeah no arms, no ccokies and no groups, no progress.

I myself am a fan of deep RP and RP events. But i also sometimes just want to go out and want to have my CK person do some work Seeking knowledge. But then again, she can't do anything on her own decently. I voiced my worries, that some of the recent changes may encourage senseless powerbuilds and on the downside will discourage rp-builds. But i feel like no one wanted to hear it back then. By now my 100% RCR for that ToT back then feels like a waste for me.I didn't expect much and i'm still disappointed. I hoped that my rebuild would bring some improvement, but it only got worse. Even with equipment from the Epic shops, it's not really much better.

And btw, my main character is a bard,and she finds no one to go with her at my times. Given the problem that i can't play when it's night in EU and early evening in the US, timezones are often the problem. Which is neither my fault nor that of others. But please guys, think before you post how easy group play is, because it isn't easy for everyone. Toss a coin to your parttime players. Oh valley of plenty...

I'm really genuinely sorry if i sound angry or frustrated. I like the server and don't want to leave it. But if i read the comments at the first page already i lost the motivation to read the rest. I feel that the players who can't play day and night, are punished for having a RL partly. But what i find even worse, are the players who are obviously whitewashing things here.

The above is -not- going against the devs and DMs by all means. I adress the 24/7 players who clearly depict things easier as they are, because in my eyes, half of their statements is simply not true.

I am grateful for the staff for all their work and will try to stay respectful. But i also would like to ask the Staff really nicely, because as a not native english speaking player, i don't know how to phrase it otherwise, but please rethink the changes. Please help the occassional players who don't find groups, to be more independent again. Help new characters and new players to find their way around easier again.

Also i would like to suggest once again: Reward the RP skills, please. Make them more useful. One example: I myself have a bunch of Lore skills, some even maxed, that -no- DM asked me for a Roll on yet. I even sacrificed a Feat for the sake of RP. I invested lot of of points in appraise, that no one uses even if offer it. I think that RP is not much rewarded in that way. An income for RP jobs like librarians, cooks, engineers, performers and the like would encourage RP-builds again greatly.

[ILLY]

The speed of leveling is a good and well issue to discuss and consider. However, at the very least I think we can all agree that no matter the speed of leveling it shouldn't involve doing the same 1-2 dungeons several hundred times. And several hundred times is perhaps an understatement if you look at what it takes to get from 21-30. As typical with big threads, the whys and hows get muddled. Speed of leveling and engagement of leveling are separate but connected issues.

Is grinding the same 2 dungeons boring as heck? -> Yes
Will the speed of exp gained from them change that -> Dubious, bandaid at best
Is the tediousness of running same dungeons the root cause of lack of engagement/lost playercount -> Partially, not conclusive

We have already established that in terms of creating more engagement on the server, the staff is working on it through examples like the Biography thing. Which is a good addition. However, I feel we are getting stuck a lot on the symptoms of what makes the server less engaging than it could be, rather than the root causes.

Game design is hard, it really is. I mean, look at the amount of "tripple A" games that fail to create the bare minimum of engaging gameplay loops. If anything, indie games innovate on gameplay loops and that is what gets copied, but I digress. For me, there are 2 aspects I'd personally focus on if I wanted to breathe more life into the server. One of them I have touched on in my Community Engagement Project.

Ease of joining
It should be so easy to get started on the server that your grandma could follow the instructions. That means knowing what to download, knowing the basics to alleviate the anxiety of engaging in something new and unknown, and knowing how to reach out if you get stuck on any of those. Minimum amount of clicks from that you decide you want to play in this cool D&D setting you learned about from watching that D&D movie and to running around on a new character. As part of this, as Aspect of Sorrow pointed out. We truly need to improve the early leveling experience, like, why are we starting at level one because holy HECK is the barrier of entry IMPOSSIBLE for someone who doesn't know nwn and the server. You have no HP, no stats, gear or abilities that will let you get started without dying repeatedly. This is just unacceptable if you want people who are new or less experienced to not quit before reaching level 2. I like the suggestion of providing an introductory experience up to level 5. They should be quick levels that are driven by going to the right places, exploring them and talking to the right NPCs that will better inform you on the setting, the going ons and where to go after.

Gameplay loop
All that before was the easy part. You know what's hard? Gameplay loops are hard, as I pointed out most games frankly fail them. First we need to look at what is a gameplay loop or discussing it with varied opinions of what it is will just muddle things.



That's an almost oversimplified example of a gameplay loop. Essentially, it is the hamster-wheel that keeps you playing. In this case, the challenge and reward on a roleplay server also extends to inter- and extrapersonal interactions, quests, faction stuff and you name it. External and internal character goals that likewise require preparation, meeting a challenge and having a payoff. DM events follow this model as well.

Creating a sustainable gameplay loop on a Persistent World is difficult. We can look at examples like Prisoners of the Mist (Ravenloft) and Arelith on NWN1. In the former, they created a world that has so much intrigue, space and mystery that it has retained a sizable playerbase. Whether you are an adventurer, a local or a outcast. There are zones where you can scheme and roleplay. The mechanics of the server are likewise engaging in their soulslike brutality and how combat feels dangerous in a way I have never truly felt elsewhere.

Arelith on the other hand went with the MMO approach. They have created a server that is largely self-sustainable through entirely player-governed political, factional and settlement systems. They have also made the leveling experience largely MMO-based with ease of looting and how combat is presented. Then they hit the critical mass of stable players and have rode that wave high ever since. Given the numbers, the faction and political roleplay is constantly going on somewhere and there's always some kind of engagement. Even if the server (in my personal opinion) is as a result unfortunately very action/mechanical pvp centric.

So, the question becomes; what is the Gameplay loop on BGTSCC right now? What makes it work? What makes it not work? And what kind of loop would we want instead?
Another example from Arelith, their landscape is entirely homebrew and thus not subject to the rigidity of "source material" which allows them to blow up towns and make vast sweeping changes and players to act with near impunity in what they pursue as a result. We do not have that luxury here, not unless the staff is willing to go off-script so to say. That too poses two approaches to the matter; do you lean into the setting and provide an "authentic Baldur's Gate" experience-- which may attract some and dissuade others as it is a matter of taste. You can also instead cater to a broader potential narrative arc by choosing to go off-script more whether that is in how settlements, politics and the metaplot affects things or simpler matters like what kind of races are available and tolerated.

Going back to the simple model of gameplay loop we can perhaps all agree that the "challenge" part of it on BGTSCC is unrewarding for many. Doing the same dungeons a hundred times over is simply not going to give much dopamine for most people (it will some!). However as I pointed out before, I think the topic of leveling is only one part of many when it comes to looking at the larger picture of how to gain new players and retain them.

Hope my rambling has helped put some things into perspective.

((Also please stop discussing the: "let's remove leveling" idea, it's unhelpful and derailing everything.))

[Steve]

I want to thank Endelyon for engaging in this conversation. It always helps when Staff add to the dialogue, that players aren’t just speaking to the void.

I’ve been around a long time, and over all those years, I’ve only managed 4 level 30 toons. I have 2 right now, and only infrequently play 1 of them.

Like I’ve said before, I seriously enjoy leveling and the role-play that can be enjoyed in the progression. I do realize that isn’t for everyone. I also am the type of player that starts a Level 1 toon about once every year, because almost every year the Server gains new Areas and mechanics that I wants enjoy, make good use of, and see how that can make the role-play more fun.

But I do also dislike that leveling is limited to an act of grinding, or to say, if a player wishes to progress their Character, grinding is THE way it’s done. And it’s all very OOC. I would rather know, as a player, that if I RP my ass off, I’d get rewarded the same for my PC, equal to what grind looting will.

THIS is what always and continues to bug me about BGTSCC. It sets up Leveling and progression more towards OOC zerging than to actual role-play…and on a server marketed as a role-play Server!

I don’t exactly have a solution to this, except to say that either DMs or systems need to be in place to give/generate those rewards.

Uncapping Chat XP helped, though I’m not totally keen on seeing a Fighter gain Epic Prowess cause they chatted their way there at the campfire.

It’s really important to recognize that Staff has been improving BGTSCC at a constant rate both in content and mechanically, for some time now. Yes, there may have been some stumbles and a few poor choices.

I personally would like to see BGTSCC change in a way that a players Level 5 toon experience can be just as epic and exciting as a Level 25 toon.

With such a change, not only will Leveling not feel like Some forced chore, or some painful progression to reach a stage of viability or value in RP context, it would also give total newbies a chance to experience the real special aspect of BGTSCC right from the start: a digital D&D experience of storybuilding and Character development…and hopefully early on, more “catch the bug” and stay engaged, increasing the population, which is something I think everyone wants and knows we need, to keep BGTSCC alive.

Leveling shouldn’t be an issue on a RP Server, but it is, because leveling has become synonymous with grinding, and THAT is boring. We don’t play games to be bored, do we??

[DaloLorn]

Very well put, both of you.

My own tolerance for grinding is somewhat greater (though never solo, I'm with metaquad on that one!) than Illy's... but the word is aptly chosen. Tolerance. Steve's post in particular resonated with me, as I can remember only a scant few occasions when I got something meaningful without grinding for it. (The number of occasions where the grind was of a tolerable volume, or obscured by satisfying factors like compelling RP or novel gameplay experiences, is somewhat greater... but it skews heavily towards tolerance rather than satisfaction. Big bits of satisfaction interspersed with tons of tolerance.)

It's easy, I suppose, to say it might be better with more DMs. (... It very well could be, for some, but I more often than not have to count myself among the "DM-starved masses", so I know the flaws of that approach.) But I think the main reason it hasn't been fixed yet is that we're not sure how to fix it, without breaking it worse.

[ILLY]

It's easy, I suppose, to say it might be better with more DMs. (... It very well could be, for some, but I more often than not have to count myself among the "DM-starved masses", so I know the flaws of that approach.)

Having more DMs does help but it can only ever be PART of a solution, not the entire solution. For a PW to feel alive, it needs to act alive. That means that things need to happen not just with player input but on their own as well to give space for the world to develop. Having more DMs helps with that, but DM events in of themselves are a functioning gameplay loop already. What I was suggesting is we need to look at the gameplay loop outside of that. How do we keep engagement with the server between such.

But I think the main reason it hasn't been fixed yet is that we're not sure how to fix it, without breaking it worse.

It's pretty clear that the current gameplay loop is unrewarding, starting there would be the how.

[DaloLorn]

It's easy, I suppose, to say it might be better with more DMs. (... It very well could be, for some, but I more often than not have to count myself among the "DM-starved masses", so I know the flaws of that approach.)

Having more DMs does help but it can only ever be PART of a solution, not the entire solution. For a PW to feel alive, it needs to act alive. That means that things need to happen not just with player input but on their own as well to give space for the world to develop. Having more DMs helps with that, but DM events in of themselves are a functioning gameplay loop already. What I was suggesting is we need to look at the gameplay loop outside of that. How do we keep engagement with the server between such.

But I think the main reason it hasn't been fixed yet is that we're not sure how to fix it, without breaking it worse.

It's pretty clear that the current gameplay loop is unrewarding, starting there would be the how.

That's the point, though. It's trivially easy to say that this is broken, and I think people have been saying it for as long as I've been on the server. We know some of this stuff is broken. (I do, at any rate! ) But "start by fixing X" implies that the problem is in not even knowing what to fix, rather than how to fix it.

[ILLY]

It's easy, I suppose, to say it might be better with more DMs. (... It very well could be, for some, but I more often than not have to count myself among the "DM-starved masses", so I know the flaws of that approach.)

Having more DMs does help but it can only ever be PART of a solution, not the entire solution. For a PW to feel alive, it needs to act alive. That means that things need to happen not just with player input but on their own as well to give space for the world to develop. Having more DMs helps with that, but DM events in of themselves are a functioning gameplay loop already. What I was suggesting is we need to look at the gameplay loop outside of that. How do we keep engagement with the server between such.

But I think the main reason it hasn't been fixed yet is that we're not sure how to fix it, without breaking it worse.

It's pretty clear that the current gameplay loop is unrewarding, starting there would be the how.

That's the point, though. It's trivially easy to say that this is broken, and I think people have been saying it for as long as I've been on the server. We know some of this stuff is broken. (I do, at any rate! ) But "start by fixing X" implies that the problem is in not even knowing what to fix, rather than how to fix it.

Working with the hypothesis that the gameplay loop is broken, a good place to start is looking at the why. I think this thread has already strongly suggested that the "reward" part of it is severely lacking when it comes to leveling. That's a good place to start. Other than that, there is the suggestion of improving the entry experience which is a project on its own and one worthwhile to do no matter what -- in my humble opinion. For a third, it would be looking at what kind of engagements can we foster in the mid-to-high level range. A good concept to go by is talking about "player agency" e.g. the player's ability to influence that which is around them. Which leads us to the concept of "source material rigidity" which is generally at odds with player agency to varying degrees.

In summary, there's plenty of places to start but that discussion would have to move up at the Staff / Dev level:
1. Entry experience -> Make it easy make it fun
2. Leveling reward -> Experiment with anything that isn't doing same dungeon 200 times
3. Player agency vs. source material rigidity -> Where on the gradient does BGTSCC want to be?

Just to expand on 3 a little since I covered it very briefly in my previous post. Baldur's Gate is a rather generic D&D setting, I mean, it is practically one of the first and on the infamous Sword Coast. I won't lie that personally the appeal of generic D&D setting has long waned for me, but that's neither here nor there. I think that new and younger audience might see it more positively but even if you've not played D&D you've met with all the fantasy tropes you already encounter here. Thus there is a choice to deviate to varying degrees in favor of reaching a broader audience. For instance (and once again very personally for me) fantasy racism is so overdone I don't see any value in it. There are plenty of other ways to drive conflict between subgroups that does not revolve around who has pointy ears, green skin or a tail.

I think that is another thing that most modern audience will find less interesting as well given with how much racism is already in the world and this is supposed to be a medium of escapism. It would be far interesting to focus on the political (War, civil or not, factions, religious orders and what not) than all that. Again, that's just me.

There has been a slew of suggestions in this thread of how to go about things, it's really up for staff too choose (or not) which of them to pursue.

[The Whistler]

Mentioning how hard the staff is working is not an indicator that I read the critique given as hostile, it was only an indication that I'm proud of the effort they're putting in and think in time it will bear fruit. There's no deeper meaning to read into it. Many in this thread have indicated, however, that these decisions were made for no reason and continue to be doubled down on for no reason, which is not a good faith representation of why these decisions were made. Balancing many different visions of what makes a fun server is a difficult challenge and things have always been decided with the best intent.

The intent of these changes was either not communicated properly or it felt lacking. With respect, the developers responsible for most of these changes hadn't had boots on the ground for a considerable time even before they enacted them. It's good to have a bird's eye view of the situation that statistics tools allow for, but not at the expense of discounting hands on experience. Vale and Ged's changes, that were aimed at increasing area diversity, may have been successful in their intent, but with the side-effect of making the leveling experience unbearable for most normal people. That you are dismissing some of the criticism as over-dramatized in your earlier post tells me that you are also suffering from a measure of disconnect from the actual experience.